Do Most Students Make it through the program?

[newenglandlobster508]

I spent a semester at SGU's Medical school. I made it through but I was kind of shocked to find out their 10% "attrition rate" was actually more like 50%, they just exclude students who drop out (to get refund,knowing their final grades), rather than stick around and be considered an attrition fail out.

I know podiatry schools have the same/similar basic science curriculum as MD/DO schools, and they accept lower stats that MD schools.

Is podiatry attrition as bad as Caribbean?

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[CardsFan92]

I spent a semester at SGU's Medical school. I made it through but I was kind of shocked to find out their 10% "attrition rate" was actually more like 50%, they just exclude students who drop out (to get refund,knowing their final grades), rather than stick around and be considered an attrition fail out.

I know podiatry schools have the same/similar basic science curriculum as MD/DO schools, and they accept lower stats that MD schools.

Is podiatry attrition as bad as Caribbean?

No, it isn't. Off the top of my head, I don't know of any programs that have a four year graduation rate below 75%. I believe DMU was at 86% or so for this past year. That being said, our boards are easier than step and COMLEX so the podiatry graduation rates really aren't anything to brag about IMO

 

[newenglandlobster508]

No, it isn't. Off the top of my head, I don't know of any programs that have a four year graduation rate below 75%. I believe DMU was at 86% or so for this past year. That being said, our boards are easier than step and COMLEX so the podiatry graduation rates really aren't anything to brag about IMO

Thanks, I am mainly interested in podiatry for the surgical aspect of it. I eventually want to use my DPM and my engineering backround to develop medical devices related to the field. Part of the reason I left Saint Georges was I just didnt enjoy dealing with the constant pressure that the school was actively trying to fail out students to meet their quota.

 

[theconzumer]

^Hey, I actually have experience in that field as an undergrad (medical devices). I did research on it and economic models at another position. If you end up at my school I'd love to chat!

 

[Weirdy]

Thanks, I am mainly interested in podiatry for the surgical aspect of it. I eventually want to use my DPM and my engineering backround to develop medical devices related to the field. Part of the reason I left Saint Georges was I just didnt enjoy dealing with the constant pressure that the school was actively trying to fail out students to meet their quota.

If you have the acumen to survive a semester at SGU (I know a caribs get a bad rep on here, and for good reason too), you should have no trouble getting in and doing decent in pod school.

And again before anyone knocks on what I said, let me reiterate: Good study habits and a strong academic profile = high chance of success, irrespective of previous enrollment.

 

[bobtheweazel]

2013-2015 Average 4 Year Graduation Rates
DMU-CPMS: 87.0%
CSPM: 86.0%
TUSPM: 85.7%
AZPod: 84.0%
SCPM: 84.0%
AVERAGE: 80.0% (80.4%)
BUSPM: 80.0%
KSUCPM: 77.0%
NYCPM: 74.0%
WUCPM: 66.0%

*Average weighted using class size (average unweighted)

Note 1: Some people are allowed more than 4 years to graduate, depending on the circumstances. Therefore the total graduation rates are higher than what is listed above.

Note 2: This is the primary reason why I usually try to nudge people away from Western (WUCPM).

Note 3: For comparison, looks like the MD 4 year graduation rate has been hovering around 83% for about 20 years now.

MD Graduation Rate reference:
https://www.aamc.org/download/37922...onratesandattritionfactorsforusmedschools.pdf

Most of the other references should be somewhere on this thread:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/podiatric-college-appeal-index.1162298/

 

[MalleableMan]

2013-2015 Average 4 Year Graduation Rates
DMU-CPMS: 87.0%
CSPM: 86.0%
TUSPM: 85.7%
AZPod: 84.0%
SCPM: 84.0%
AVERAGE: 80.0% (80.4%)
BUSPM: 80.0%
KSUCPM: 77.0%
NYCPM: 74.0%
WUCPM: 66.0%

*Average weighted using class size (average unweighted)

Note 1: Some people are allowed more than 4 years to graduate, depending on the circumstances. Therefore the total graduation rates are higher than what is listed above.

Note 2: This is the primary reason why I usually try to nudge people away from Western (WUCPM).

Note 3: For comparison, looks like the MD 4 year graduation rate has been hovering around 83% for about 20 years now.

MD Graduation Rate reference:
https://www.aamc.org/download/37922...onratesandattritionfactorsforusmedschools.pdf

Most of the other references should be somewhere on this thread:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/podiatric-college-appeal-index.1162298/

It's great that you took the time to look into these numbers but you should consider that starting class sizes at every school varies. For example, Western's incoming classes are capped at 50 students. Losing 1 student at Western would influence the percentage far greater than if Kent State, Scholl, Temple, or NYCPM lost 1 student.

 

[bobtheweazel]

It's great that you took the time to look into these numbers but you should consider that starting class sizes at every school varies. For example, Western's incoming classes are capped at 50 students. Losing 1 student at Western would influence the percentage far greater than if Kent State, Scholl, Temple, or NYCPM lost 1 student.

I agree that class size is something to consider. That's partially why I calculated a weighted overall average using incoming class sizes. So that OP could see what the overall 4 year graduation rate is across schools.

And any way you slice it, 1/3 people not graduating within 4 years is a bit excessive in my opinion.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using SDN mobile

 

[bobtheweazel]

It's great that you took the time to look into these numbers but you should consider that starting class sizes at every school varies. For example, Western's incoming classes are capped at 50 students. Losing 1 student at Western would influence the percentage far greater than if Kent State, Scholl, Temple, or NYCPM lost 1 student.

Also, DMU only gets 53 students and Midwestern only gets 30 and they are both integrated with DOs. So neither small class size nor DO integration/more intense academics could really be an excuse for Western's low graduation rate.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using SDN mobile

 

[HeySister]

Having just graduated, I can say with confidence that we lost about 20% of our class. Many failed out. Fewer left for other reasons. I think a few left for medical school at some point. If you take the time to study appropriately you are going to make it. If you don't, you will struggle. It seems in every graduating class about 30% of the class will be really great and continue to push the limits of the profession. Another 40% are going to be good doctors. And then there is about 30% of my class I wouldn't trust with anyone.

 

[ldsrmdude]

Also, DMU only gets 53 students and Midwestern only gets 30 and they are both integrated with DOs. So neither small class size nor DO integration/more intense academics could really be an excuse for Western's low graduation rate.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using SDN mobile

I give Western more slack in this than you do. The first class at Midwestern lost a very significant number of the students if I remember correctly. Part of it's probably due to it being a new school, especially a newer teaching style. I wouldn't discourage anyone from going to Western because of this and wouldn't have been concerned about it as a pre-podiatry student.

 

[ro221]

I give Western more slack in this than you do. The first class at Midwestern lost a very significant number of the students if I remember correctly. Part of it's probably due to it being a new school, especially a newer teaching style. I wouldn't discourage anyone from going to Western because of this and wouldn't have been concerned about it as a pre-podiatry student.

I agree its still a new school. Low graduation rate = high boards. Western had 100% boards pass rate in 2013.

 

[ro221]

2013-2015 Average 4 Year Graduation Rates

MD Graduation Rate reference:
https://www.aamc.org/download/37922...onratesandattritionfactorsforusmedschools.pdf

Most of the other references should be somewhere on this thread:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/podiatric-college-appeal-index.1162298/

This is some good insight thanks bob!

 

[bobtheweazel]

I give Western more slack in this than you do. The first class at Midwestern lost a very significant number of the students if I remember correctly. Part of it's probably due to it being a new school, especially a newer teaching style. I wouldn't discourage anyone from going to Western because of this and wouldn't have been concerned about it as a pre-podiatry student.

It's a complex situation and I'm sure that's a component of it.

I might've cut them more slack as well if not for the poor experience I had with Western. I interviewed there this past Fall and specifically asked about the low graduation rate, expecting my interviewer to give me some kind of justification. He simply said "this school isn't for everyone"...literally that's it. Then he kinda just stared at me waiting for my next question as if he had actually just given me a meaningful, satisfactory answer. He showed no concern for the students who hadn't made it and expressed no intent on the school's part to do anything to make the situation better.

I later spoke directly with Dr Harkless about this matter and he didn't provide me with any kind of justification either. He just kinda changed the subject and thanked me for my feedback on the whole situation.

Had either one of them given me any kind of answer like "well it's a new program" or "it's a new teaching style" or "our lower class size is impacted more percentage-wise when a student does leave" or absolutely anything, then I would probably view the numbers in a different light. But probably more so than the raw numbers themselves, the apathy and willful ignorance that I encountered is what concerns me about Western.

Also, just so y'all don't think I'm bitter for some reason, I was accepted to Western but politely declined.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using SDN mobile

 

[SalterHarris]

I attend WesternU and I can attest that the high number of students who leave or fail out is because we are held to the same standard as the DO school in grading and performance. All of our classes are with the med students and we take the same exams, we don't receive a curve unless the DO students do. COMP is one of the best DO schools, so the curriculum is rigorous. We take 75 credit hours the first year, so the study time requirement is pretty significant and a lot of students can't handle the stress or can't make the grades. It's not difficult to fail a class. The college itself is new but the curriculum has been around since the DO school opened.
The goal at WesternU is to be trained as a physician first and a podiatrist second. We also take some OMM workshops, which is pretty fun.

 

[bobtheweazel]

I attend WesternU and I can attest that the high number of students who leave or fail out is because we are held to the same standard as the DO school in grading and performance. All of our classes are with the med students and we take the same exams, we don't receive a curve unless the DO students do. COMP is one of the best DO schools, so the curriculum is rigorous. We take 75 credit hours the first year, so the study time requirement is pretty significant and a lot of students can't handle the stress or can't make the grades. It's not difficult to fail a class. The college itself is new but the curriculum has been around since the DO school opened.
The goal at WesternU is to be trained as a physician first and a podiatrist second. We also take some OMM workshops, which is pretty fun.

I'm sure that's a component of it, but like I said it's weird that other integrated schools have such higher graduation rates, higher 1st time board pass rates, and virtually the same residency placement rate. And I know at least at Midwestern the DPMs are held to the same standards as their DO counterparts as far as grading curves and whatnot.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using SDN mobile

 

[Weirdy]

Different strokes for different folks.

When gf was interviewing at opto schools, they were very different regarding faculty/admin support to students.

Research obsessed/higher tiered schools were more of "I don't care how you do it, you are responsible for exceptional grades and keeping our school's prestige. Now leave me alone".

Some students excel in that environment and could care less how faculty/admin interact with them. Some do better in more personable programs with professors who check up on you and talk to you when they can see you're struggling.

Kind of a tangent as it doesn't really have anything to do with the large difference in board pass rates but just an observation. Pretty prevalent in MD programs as well.

 

[Weirdy]

Sorry for reviving a dead thread but never thought I'd be back 3 months later after an interview at Western.

Being honest- as much as i went in thinking I'd hate it and being scared of their board and graduation rates.....I really really like the school.

The workload still sounds insane but their students really pull it off.

 

[VolibearMain]

Sorry for reviving a dead thread but never thought I'd be back 3 months later after an interview at Western.

Being honest- as much as i went in thinking I'd hate it and being scared of their board and graduation rates.....I really really like the school.

The workload still sounds insane but their students really pull it off.

Western seemed like a neat place. Calm campus, alright surroundings, decent curriculum. Its got a pretty hard core DO school so I would imagine the DPMS work pretty hard since they are studying the (almost) same curriculum.
The only parts that scared me off were that the student ambassador said their lower extremity anatomy is weak, when going into clinicals.
And the full day uniform/dress code. For me I just cant learn when I'm fully decked out in dress clothes.

 

[bdvesely]

Hey! I am a first year pod student at WesternU. WesternU has lots of opportunities to learn anatomy outside of our medical gross anatomy class. Lower extremity anatomy is reinforced in all of our podiatry classes. The curriculum is difficult, but there is a great support system and community that allows students to succeed. Feel free to ask me any question! I'll answer what I can.

 

[medicalredhead]

Thanks, I am mainly interested in podiatry for the surgical aspect of it. I eventually want to use my DPM and my engineering backround to develop medical devices related to the field. Part of the reason I left Saint Georges was I just didnt enjoy dealing with the constant pressure that the school was actively trying to fail out students to meet their quota.

I would love to talk to you about your experiences. I've got an engineering background too, but discovered I want to be the surgeon rather than the designer in the process of designing new medical devices. Just recently discovered podiatry!