Dismissed b/c of Comp

[ebvb21]

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Members don't see this ad.

 

[ebvb21]

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[Goro]

Very sorry to hear of your woes, but it's time to get out while the getting out is good, and not jump from frying pan into fire.

 

[Skip Intro]

I was just under a lot of stress and the scores are definitely not a reflection of my ability.

Dunning–Kruger effect - Wikipedia

Maybe?

-Skip

 

[ebvb21]

Dunning–Kruger effect - Wikipedia

Maybe?

-Skip

maybe yes

The Impact of Stress on Cognition and Motivation

but this doesn't really answer my question

 

[ebvb21]

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[Skip Intro]

maybe yes

The Impact of Stress on Cognition and Motivation

but this doesn't really answer my question

Life is stressful. Doubly-so as a doctor. If you can't hack it, learn to manage it, and walk into the hospital putting your own needs for a time being while focusing 100% on your patients, maybe this isn't the profession for you.

Sorry.

-Skip

 

[drVia]

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Dear ebvb21,
I am so sorry this happened to you. I feel your pain as I have just been dismissed from Ross because of failure to complete all requirements for graduation within the 7 year period. I had done all my rotations, passed step1 and step2 cs, and the two canadian board exams required for residency application. The only requirement i was missing was passing step 2 ck. I too, like many of our peers suffer from depression, text taking anxiety and ADD, for many years now and this was known by the school when they admitted me...they promised review programs for the boards which were not made available.
Knowing my setbacks I did seek help and guidance from the school and faculty but nothing ever came out of it. I can play the victim and feel ashamed and sorry for myself : I was dismissed at the exact time i became eligible to retake the exam, after 7 years of harsh strenuous work and compromise, not mentioning the half a million dollar debt that I have accumulated....

This is what my dean wrote to me on my final dismissal letter:
"I hope you do not let this detour keep you from achieving your goal of helping people in need."

I feel cheated but mostly discussed at the medical education system.
The reality is that it is a business, and if you do not fit in the mold or you bring down their statistics, they will get rid of you like a peace of garbage, no matter the reason or disability.
You can choose to fight it with a lawyer (like I did) but you will end up losing your time and money because these institutions have the law backing them up...

So after these last couple of weeks of looking for answers on the internet and reaching out to friends and family, here is what I have concluded and done:

Many people will tell you, with your own good in mind, that you should consider an alternative career....and you should!
....but don't get me wrong, that does not mean that you must quit trying to become a doctor! I think it is important however to really think about your motives of wanting to be a physician and determine if this is really for you.

After lots of soul searching, I came to the conclusion that medicine is my destiny and decided that i would give myself another try at taking step 2 ck. I looked on the internet and did not find much about options available for those in similar situations to ours...
However, after reaching out to some of my mentors, I found an accredited medical school with offices in the US that has a program for step prep and that will sponsor me for taking CK. I have registered and supposed to start in September. The fee for the semester is a fraction of the price of a semester at ross and this board review will be in small classes and more personalized instruction...
This has given me a feeling hope that there might be some light at the end of the tunnel. This is why I wanted to share this with you as it may be something you would like to consider as well...

Know that there are options out there and please do not let yourself be discouraged by the negative comments of some of our peers.

Hoping you feel a little less alone in your situation and wishing you all the best!

Feel free to PM me if you want some more info.

sincerely,
Dr Via

 

[Skip Intro]

Feel free to PM me if you want some more info.

From the SDN ToS page (Forums Terms of Service & Website Online Service Agreement - Student Doctor Network)

Don’t advertise (SPAM). SDN is a nonprofit organization that promotes open discussion among students and doctors. It is not operated as a free service for promotion of your site, product or service. SDN does not allow ads in your signature, ‘stealth’ marketing, etc. These are quickly reported by our members and will result in banning and possibly blocking of site/product/service’s name from the SDN Forums. (Blocked URLs may be redirected to SDN’s Site ). If you wish to benefit our membership while promoting your organization, see our sponsorship section.​

Just FYI.

-Skip

 

[drVia]

From the SDN ToS page (Forums Terms of Service & Website Online Service Agreement - Student Doctor Network)

Don’t advertise (SPAM). SDN is a nonprofit organization that promotes open discussion among students and doctors. It is not operated as a free service for promotion of your site, product or service. SDN does not allow ads in your signature, ‘stealth’ marketing, etc. These are quickly reported by our members and will result in banning and possibly blocking of site/product/service’s name from the SDN Forums. (Blocked URLs may be redirected to SDN’s Site ). If you wish to benefit our membership while promoting your organization, see our sponsorship section.​

Just FYI.

-Skip

Thank you for your kind message.
I did not mean to advertise anything.
Being dismissed from med school can be very distressing: when I received the news from my school, i was devastated and honestly felt lost. With no one there ore able to guide me, i searched the internet which made me feel worse because the only option that seemed available was to give up on pursuing a career in medicine. I ended up finding a solution for myself and I will share it with the community if it means that it can help someone.
Like you, I am not an expert or authority on medical education, i am just sharing my story.

If you have any advice or constructive thoughts, feel free to share!
thanks

 

[deleted480308]

Thank you for your kind message.
I did not mean to advertise anything.
Being dismissed from med school can be very distressing: when I received the news from my school, i was devastated and honestly felt lost. With no one there ore able to guide me, i searched the internet which made me feel worse because the only option that seemed available was to give up on pursuing a career in medicine. I ended up finding a solution for myself and I will share it with the community if it means that it can help someone.
Like you, I am not an expert or authority on medical education, i am just sharing my story.

If you have any advice or constructive thoughts, feel free to share!
thanks

My thoughts are you are advertising for a school. Mentioning offices in atlanta is a poor attempt to imply it's a US school, whichh clearly isn't the case if it will take students after failure to graduate in 7yrs.

Let the poor guy accept that it didn't pan out and move on with life.

 

[drVia]

My thoughts are you are advertising for a school. Mentioning offices in atlanta is a poor attempt to imply it's a US school, whichh clearly isn't the case if it will take students after failure to graduate in 7yrs.

Let the poor guy accept that it didn't pan out and move on with life.

It really is incredible how some people that are supposed to be a physician can be so judgmental and condescending and also way besides the point!

 

[deleted480308]

It really is incredible how some people that are supposed to be a physician can be so judgmental and condescending and also way besides the point!

Simply put....is your "accredited" school "with offices in atlanta" actually a US medical school or an international school that just happens to have some US real estate? What percentage of matriculants are at a US residency within 5yrs?

 

[drVia]

What I meant was that it is ECFMG accredited, it is NOT a US med school!

And your goal is?

Let me explain something for the sake of transparency>
In my situation, my goal is to be able to take step 2 ck and pass it. If a program will help me do that, then I will take it thankyouverymuch!.
This is simply my experience, nothing more, nothing less.

I do not find myself to be a statistic. I have achieved many things in my life that seemed statistically unlikely. I have also witnessed friends of mine failing their steps multiple times and then getting a residency....one of which got one in dermatology!!!, oH! and this, in a university in Florida ( not mentioning any names because you may think i"m advertising!) . Their paths have not been straightforward or quick, but with perseverance and hard work, they made it!

Thank you for your concern! I hope that clarifies things for you and that you will have peaceful sleep tonight!

 

[Shinken]

I have also witnessed friends of mine failing their steps multiple times and then getting a residency....one of which got one in dermatology!!!, oH! and this, in a university in Florida ( not mentioning any names because you may think i"m advertising!) . Their paths have not been straightforward or quick, but with perseverance and hard work, they made it!

 

[deleted480308]

What I meant was that it is ECFMG accredited, it is NOT a US med school!

And your goal is?

Let me explain something for the sake of transparency>
In my situation, my goal is to be able to take step 2 ck and pass it. If a program will help me do that, then I will take it thankyouverymuch!.
This is simply my experience, nothing more, nothing less.

I do not find myself to be a statistic. I have achieved many things in my life that seemed statistically unlikely. I have also witnessed friends of mine failing their steps multiple times and then getting a residency....one of which got one in dermatology!!!, oH! and this, in a university in Florida ( not mentioning any names because you may think i"m advertising!) . Their paths have not been straightforward or quick, but with perseverance and hard work, they made it!

Thank you for your concern! I hope that clarifies things for you and that you will have peaceful sleep tonight!

what percentage of matriculants enter a US residency within 5yrs?

 

[aformerstudent]

From the SDN ToS page (Forums Terms of Service & Website Online Service Agreement - Student Doctor Network)

Don’t advertise (SPAM). SDN is a nonprofit organization that promotes open discussion among students and doctors. It is not operated as a free service for promotion of your site, product or service. SDN does not allow ads in your signature, ‘stealth’ marketing, etc. These are quickly reported by our members and will result in banning and possibly blocking of site/product/service’s name from the SDN Forums. (Blocked URLs may be redirected to SDN’s Site ). If you wish to benefit our membership while promoting your organization, see our sponsorship section.​

Just FYI.

-Skip

That's funny, you don't seem to ever follow this clause.

 

[Skip Intro]

... that promotes open discussion among students and doctors

That's funny, you don't seem to ever follow this clause.

Assuming you are referring to that?

1) I (me, personally) am not "SDN", which is what that "clause" was referring to with regards to SDN's mission. (Reading comprehension much?)
2) Nonetheless, please describe - in detail along with backing yourself up - how, when, and where I have ever failed to "promote open discussion" on this forum, if that's the assertion.

You appear to continually have difficulty understanding the difference between facts and your opinion, often misstating or misrepresenting the former to serve the latter. Regardless, your dredging up a post simply to once again engage in ad hominem because you can't otherwise cogently respond to what I've written is duly noted. Simply because you don't agree with - or like (or whatever) - what I post does not mean that it is invalid. Whereas, I take pains to point out (where appropriate and relevant) exactly when, how, and why yours are.

Please remind us all again why you are still here?

-Skip

 

[aformerstudent]

Assuming you are referring to that?

1) I (me, personally) am not "SDN", which is what that "clause" was referring to with regards to SDN's mission. (Reading comprehension much?)
2) Nonetheless, please describe - in detail along with backing yourself up - how, when, and where I have ever failed to "promote open discussion" on this forum, if that's the assertion.

You appear to continually have difficulty understanding the difference between facts and your opinion, often misstating or misrepresenting the former to serve the latter. Regardless, your dredging up a post simply to once again engage in ad hominem because you can't otherwise cogently respond to what I've written is duly noted. Simply because you don't agree with - or like (or whatever) - what I post does not mean that it is invalid. Whereas, I take pains to point out (where appropriate and relevant) exactly when, how, and why yours are.

Please remind us all again why you are still here?

-Skip

Uh, SDN is made up of registered users genius. No users means no open discussion. Do you understand that or do I need to sign it out for you? I'd like to see the look on your face when you get sued one day. You'll be like "Uh, it's not me I'm not a part of the hospital I'm just a doctor."

Every time someone posts something you don't agree with, you try to discredit it without backing anything up.
I never respond to your posts but you annoyingly respond to each of my posts with nonsense. I mean you even respond to MUA-related posts and you're not even from that school lol.

On that last post, you advised that student to stick it out with retaking the comp shelf? Are you nuts or are you going to offer that student a residency position at your school? Today, administration at any of these schools are telling students flat out that an extra semester spent in school will literally kill your chances of success in the future. IF YOU THINK THAT IS INCORRECT INFORMATION, COME ARGUE ABOUT IT AND PROVIDE FACTS.

I'll point it out again in case you missed it last time. You're far removed from the current situation down in the Caribbean. You are doing a disservice to any student if you tell them the process is easier than it is. I've been in school more recently than you so, understandably, I would know more than you about SCHOOL. SCHOOL Skip, not MEDICINE. SCHOOL...repeat it to yourself. You don't need to be a doctor to have a discussion on SCHOOL.

As to why I'm here? Well, I guess I'm here for the same reason you're here.

 

[Skip Intro]

Uh, SDN is made up of registered users genius. No users means no open discussion. Do you understand that or do I need to sign it out for you? I'd like to see the look on your face when you get sued one day. You'll be like "Uh, it's not me I'm not a part of the hospital I'm just a doctor."

Every time someone posts something you don't agree with, you try to discredit it without backing anything up.
I never respond to your posts but you annoyingly respond to each of my posts with nonsense. I mean you even respond to MUA-related posts and you're not even from that school lol.

On that last post, you advised that student to stick it out with retaking the comp shelf? Are you nuts or are you going to offer that student a residency position at your school? Today, administration at any of these schools are telling students flat out that an extra semester spent in school will literally kill your chances of success in the future. IF YOU THINK THAT IS INCORRECT INFORMATION, COME ARGUE ABOUT IT AND PROVIDE FACTS.

I'll point it out again in case you missed it last time. You're far removed from the current situation down in the Caribbean. You are doing a disservice to any student if you tell them the process is easier than it is. I've been in school more recently than you so, understandably, I would know more than you about SCHOOL. SCHOOL Skip, not MEDICINE. SCHOOL...repeat it to yourself. You don't need to be a doctor to have a discussion on SCHOOL.

As to why I'm here? Well, I guess I'm here for the same reason you're here.

-Skip

 

[aformerstudent]

-Skip

 

[Skip Intro]

Facts:

The 2016 residency attainment rate for first-time eligible graduates was 86%.

In 2015, more than 830 Ross graduates earned a residency position. That's a record number for our school.
​

University Facts & Figures

More facts:

To date, 794 graduates have secured residency programs throughout the United States, in 43 of the 50 states, in 19 different specialties. In addition to the 22 Canadian graduates who secured spots in Canada, many Canadian graduates obtained U.S. residency positions.
​

St. George's University Medical School Graduates Obtain Record Number of North American Residency Positions

Yet more facts:

AUC's residency attainment rate for first-time eligible graduates was 88.5 percent. That rate surpassed the MATCH rates of US citizen international medical graduates (53.9%), non-US citizen international medical graduates (50.5%), and osteopathic medical school graduates (80.3%)
​

AUC - American University of the Caribbean School of Medicine

Listen, aforemerstudent, you keep making the spurious arguments that "times have changed" (etc., etc., blah, blah, blah) and that I am somehow out of touch. You keep telling people - your opinion - not to go to this school or that school, and to only go to SGU because that's their only chance. This is based on nothing more than your poorly informed opinion.

Another fact is that you know nothing about what I do, where I work, what I'm involved in professionally - you just continue to make a lot of assumptions based on what very little you actually know about me.

Other people here will continue to judge who is giving good advice... and who is talking out of their anus (i.e., a successful graduate killing it in the real world, or a drop-out).

I'm not hear to judge you. But, you do make it easy.

-Skip

 

[aformerstudent]

you just continue to make a lot of assumptions based on what very little you actually know about me.

Likewise my friend.

You do your thing, I'll do my thing.

Also, FYI, lose the arrogance. It doesn't help your cause.

 

[Skip Intro]

Also, FYI, lose the arrogance. It doesn't help your cause.

What? Oh brother...



Get over yourself, dude. Seriously.

-Skip

 

[aformerstudent]

What? Oh brother...



Get over yourself, dude. Seriously.

-Skip

If you're so successful, why are you here lol?

 

[Skip Intro]

If you're so successful, why are you here lol?

Why are you here? A clear failure who chose poorly from the get-go and enrolled in a low-tier school... and then failed out. Now, you're just crapping on this forum.

Why am I here? To prove that people can be successful going this pathway if they apply themselves, as well as to provide a balanced, unbiased source of information.

You? You've been here a few months apparently to piss-and-moan about your bad experience... then try extrapolate that into some pseudo-expertise about the entire experience, save (for some reason) SGU. Ultimately, you're just another failure. Another
"cautionary tale"... who purports to be an authority but is, in reality, nothing more than one in a string of people who come here to gripe about how life was unfair to them, and then do nothing but vomit bad information.

Me? I've been here over a decade. You're not the first troll this forum has encountered. You won't be the last. You'll either get tired and go away, or you'll eventually be dispatched (like you already were once already).

-Skip

 

[deleted274002]

Why are you here? A clear failure who chose poorly from the get-go and enrolled in a low-tier school... and then failed out. Now, you're just crapping on this forum.

Why am I here? To prove that people can be successful going this pathway if they apply themselves, as well as to provide a balanced, unbiased source of information.

You? You've been here a few months apparently to piss-and-moan about your bad experience... then try extrapolate that into some pseudo-expertise about the entire experience, save (for some reason) SGU. Ultimately, you're just another failure. Another
"cautionary tale"... who purports to be an authority but is, in reality, nothing more than one in a string of people who come here to gripe about how life was unfair to them, and then do nothing but vomit bad information.

Me? I've been here over a decade. You're not the first troll this forum has encountered. You won't be the last. You'll either get tired and go away, or you'll eventually be dispatched (like you already were once already).

-Skip

 

[aformerstudent]

Why are you here? A clear failure who chose poorly from the get-go and enrolled in a low-tier school... and then failed out. Now, you're just crapping on this forum.

Why am I here? To prove that people can be successful going this pathway if they apply themselves, as well as to provide a balanced, unbiased source of information.

You? You've been here a few months apparently to piss-and-moan about your bad experience... then try extrapolate that into some pseudo-expertise about the entire experience, save (for some reason) SGU. Ultimately, you're just another failure. Another
"cautionary tale"... who purports to be an authority but is, in reality, nothing more than one in a string of people who come here to gripe about how life was unfair to them, and then do nothing but vomit bad information.

Me? I've been here over a decade. You're not the first troll this forum has encountered. You won't be the last. You'll either get tired and go away, or you'll eventually be dispatched (like you already were once already).

-Skip

Look guy,

I'm going to explain this to you very slowly so you can understand and then I'm going to block you because you are now turning this personal which really attests to your, ahem, professionalism or whatever they taught you about that subject at your school and during your training.

1. Nobody failed out lol. If I wanted to enroll at MUA tomorrow, I can go back. I chose to WITHDRAW from the university because I felt that was the right move. If I want to transfer to any school I can do that tomorrow as well. There is nothing on my record that would prevent me from doing such. You seem to be hung up on this idea of failure but I'm sorry to disappoint you that I'm not that guy.
2. Guy, you have to understand that you went to a Caribbean medical school way back in 2001 I think you said. The landscape was COMPLETELY different back then in the Caribbean. Additionally, There were fewer US medical students applying to the same residencies which, from my understanding, have not changed since 1997. If you really are a doctor, you should be able to understand that a little bit more than you currently do.
3. Based on your attitude, I don't think you're representing your school very well. I'd actually advise you to stop using the Ross name in future posts because I don't think they would be too happy to have you representing them on this forum.
4. I don't think you really read my posts (probably because you're caught up with the idea that I somehow failed) because if you did you would see that I am helping other students who are going down this path see what they are up against. And rightly so, I've been down that path. My information is anything but incorrect; it's actually policy. I'm reiterating SCHOOL POLICY.
5. I am an expert on how the Caribbean basic sciences programs work. At least for the next few years at least as I have access to whatever any other student in the med program has access too. Anything that I have said can be verified with administration at any of these schools should you decide to do that. I'll bet your license on it and you can take that to the bank.
6. This is not a dick measuring contest I'm afraid. I don't plan on being here 10 years and besting your dubious honor. I do have a life. For now, students should know how the Caribbean operates today and I am happy to offer up my experience.

I'm surprised at your behavior, usually by the time you become an attending, you should know how to handle differing opinions or ideas. I hope you don't carry this same attitude with you into the OR. If you do, I REALLY feel bad for your patients.

I hope that made some sense to you. I really do.

 

[aformerstudent]

This is actually cute. I'm going to use this.

 

[Skip Intro]

... then I'm going to block you because you are now turning this personal...

Wait a minute? Who started with the ad hominem?

I don't respect idle threats. Please, please block me. Thank you. But why don't you just go away instead? Again, please... and thank you.

This is actually cute. I'm going to use this.

What's "cute" is you lecturing me on professionalism, the guy who denigrated his professors - the people he was paying to teach him medicine - for not speaking English properly...

Medical university of Americas
​

... and, is now on some mission on this forum - confusing his ill-informed opinion with fact and extrapolating his own negative personal experience to everyone else's potential experience unless, through poorly defended and inadequately argued reasoning that if they decide to attend SGU (where you purport that maybe they'll have a chance) it might be okay - simply to obfuscate and arrogantly profess that he knows "the secret" to this entire process.

You are F.O.S. You are exhausting. You are a fraud. And, ultimately, you took your shot at a school no one here with any credibility would recommend, and you lost.

Everyone else? Caveat emptor.

-Skip

 

[aformerstudent]

Well I'm sorry that you feel so much anger and you feel the need to stoop so low and make this personal. The fact remains however that you went to med school in the Caribbean in 2001 when things were quite different dare I say easier. I feel that I have a responsibility to let others know what I experienced down there when I was a student. When you have course directors, associate deans, and clinical deans saying "THINGS ARE DIFFERENT TODAY." I don't know how you translate that into Skip language and I don't know why anyone would take your advice when the people that are signing your diploma are telling you otherwise.

If it makes you feel better, you can say whatever you want to say about the Caribbean and I wont argue it but I will keep letting people know that the Caribbean, save for MAYBE SGU, is essentially a gamble. As I stated before, I've seen straight-A students fail down there and I will not let someone like you distort that just because someone went to the Caribbean once upon a time and made it out. So this is not coming from a disgruntled student. I was just able to laugh off my experience but there are people there with honest shattered dreams. I recognized the scam and packed my bags and left. I think that makes me wise compared to someone who hops from school to school or doesn't know how much trouble they are going to be in long-term with mediocre performance.

Regarding MUA, it is a 50-state approved school today so I don't know why you are making fun of me for going there lol. Ross, MUA...same thing, different name. Did I miss something?

And again, go back into any of my posts and I challenge you to go to each school I quoted and verify any of that information. Be it MUA, Saba, SGU, AUA, UMHS, or from wherever I posted. You see I still have friends there and have access to things nobody else does. How exactly are you going to argue with me regarding school policies?

AND STOP SAYING I LOST lol. I didn't lose anything. I'm still eating well.

If you have any doubts, go ask a colleague of yours who is VERY FAMILIAR with the Caribbean and ask them if they would send their kids to any school other than SGU today. Honestly, do that and then get back to me.

Do not set some poor soul up for disaster by making them believe something that doesn't exist. I still say the right person can get through SGU successfully because I have seen it happen. That same person will guaranteed get tripped up somewhere at one of these other schools. One excellent example is MUA's "research paper." After the comp, they make you write a research paper that has to get "approved." Anyone with a functioning brain should know that they are doing that to control third year rotations. If they couldn't get you on the comp, they will get you on that "paper."

Even though you are trying to hit below the belt, I'm not mad at you. If you want to continue to discuss, we can do that.

 

[Skip Intro]

Well I'm sorry that you feel so much anger and you feel the need to stoop so low and make this personal. The fact remains however that you went to med school in the Caribbean in 2001 when things were quite different dare I say easier. I feel that I have a responsibility to let others know what I experienced down there when I was a student. When you have course directors, associate deans, and clinical deans saying "THINGS ARE DIFFERENT TODAY." I don't know how you translate that into Skip language and I don't know why anyone would take your advice when the people that are signing your diploma are telling you otherwise.

If it makes you feel better, you can say whatever you want to say about the Caribbean and I wont argue it but I will keep letting people know that the Caribbean, save for MAYBE SGU, is essentially a gamble. As I stated before, I've seen straight-A students fail down there and I will not let someone like you distort that just because someone went to the Caribbean once upon a time and made it out. So this is not coming from a disgruntled student. I was just able to laugh off my experience but there are people there with honest shattered dreams. I recognized the scam and packed my bags and left. I think that makes me wise compared to someone who hops from school to school or doesn't know how much trouble they are going to be in long-term with mediocre performance.

Regarding MUA, it is a 50-state approved school today so I don't know why you are making fun of me for going there lol. Ross, MUA...same thing, different name. Did I miss something?

And again, go back into any of my posts and I challenge you to go to each school I quoted and verify any of that information. Be it MUA, Saba, SGU, AUA, UMHS, or from wherever I posted. You see I still have friends there and have access to things nobody else does. How exactly are you going to argue with me regarding school policies?

AND STOP SAYING I LOST lol. I didn't lose anything. I'm still eating well.

If you have any doubts, go ask a colleague of yours who is VERY FAMILIAR with the Caribbean and ask them if they would send their kids to any school other than SGU today. Honestly, do that and then get back to me.

Do not set some poor soul up for disaster by making them believe something that doesn't exist. I still say the right person can get through SGU successfully because I have seen it happen. That same person will guaranteed get tripped up somewhere at one of these other schools. One excellent example is MUA's "research paper." After the comp, they make you write a research paper that has to get "approved." Anyone with a functioning brain should know that they are doing that to control third year rotations. If they couldn't get you on the comp, they will get you on that "paper."

Even though you are trying to hit below the belt, I'm not mad at you. If you want to continue to discuss, we can do that.

I thought you were ignoring me? #idlethreats

-Skip

 

[Mikkus]

As a recent-ish SGU carib grad... I plead for everyone to please ignore aformerstudents posts, especially concerning SGU VS Ross. I had friends at Ross finish on the same time schedule I did. They experienced a higher retention rate, similar match rate, and a nicer island. I really would consider them equally poor choices over a DO school, but if those two are really your last options I would consider both about equal.
Please also note he is incorrect in regards to his stating 0 residencies have opened in the last 10 years. The Carib match rate has stayed about the same in this time. Now, looking into the future I cannot say how the forecast may look for Carib matching in 5 years, and I would recommend anyone looking down this path to become an expert in the residency merge and do openings.
I would still never recommend anyone use the Carib as a first option, but if a student has applied both MD and DO 3 years and not received an acceptance, and cannot see themselves happy in a different field, and not afraid of the loans that would stack if they don't match, I would approve of the decision.
I also warn those seeking information on carib to never take advice from someone who has not matched. Many of my co-students were happy and dandy until interview season came around, that's when you truly understand just how limited carib leaves you, even if you are a stellar student.
I applaud people like @Skip Intro intro and @Goro for trying to bring sanity and actual fact to these threads. It is a never ending battle...

 

[aformerstudent]

You're applauding that character Goro who says NOT to go to the Caribbean because you will end up as an Uber driver yet you are telling others not to take my advice about the Caribbean when I unearth administrative policies that essentially make it impossible for the average person to even graduate? Are you drinking the same juice Skip is drinking lol? Or are you some school rep? It's all mighty suspicious.

You're post is filled with "anecdotes" according to Skip. ..."I had friends..." Geez, when I start a sentence like that, you guys go bat **** crazy.

Nobody, on this planet at least, will apply for three cycles to MD and DO programs and THEN apply Caribbean. I would say 25% will apply to SGU as their first choice and the other 75% are probably applying after one cycle. Time is money and the "right" student will capitalize on that at SGU and that type of student will not come onto SDN and waste their time because they know what to do. I mean telling someone to apply to US programs for three cycles is the most stupid advice I have ever heard for two reasons. 1. Waste of time 2. If you got rejected twice, you AIN'T MEANT TO BE A DOCTOR!!! because your application probably sucks really bad. I mean think about that for a second. You got rejected, you improved your app for the next cycle and then got rejected again. At that point, you failed.

Regarding taking advice from people about the Caribbean, I'm going to break this down into accessible language that even Skip and Mikkus will be able to understand ok...

1. The Caribbean experience is made up of two VERY DIFFERENT components. Pre-clinical and clinical medicine. You have to pass the pre-clinical part successfully to make it to the clinical part of the program. There are many steps in between both.

2. My focus is purely on PRE-CLINICAL medicine. A lot of people who are accepted to these schools are not qualified to pass this part of the program and this is where all the problems with the Caribbean stem from. When you mess up during the pre-clinical years, you'll either fail out or worse, set yourself up for disaster with a poor STEP score. Pre-clinical medicine should lead to a successful STEP 1 score which will then make it easier for you to navigate year three and move forward. You take shelf exams during your third year but anybody will tell you that they are not like the exams you take during basic sciences. Again, this is a part that some of these characters here don't want to tell you about. They just want to bunch medical school all together for some reason. That's not how it works. During his surgical rotation, "My friend" (sigh) read a book called "Dr. Pestana's Surgical Notes" from front to back and got an A+ on that rotation. Try doing something like that for STEP 1.

3. If you successfully make it to the clinical years with above-average grades and no blemishes to your transcript, I think you can succeed. And I've been making the argument that succeeding is easier at SGU because of the infrastructure that the school has compared to most other schools. Take a look at SGU's clinical site list. That takes money and reputation to sustain. Some of these smaller schools lose clinical locations DURING AN ONGOING TERM. Why doesn't Skip or Mikkus tell you guys that information? Makes you wonder right?

4. The Caribbean today is not the Caribbean of yesteryear. That's just a fact. What worked for some student's back in 2001 WILL NOT WORK FOR YOU TODAY. Also, we have Canadian students and international students on this site and things are even harder for them. It would be nice to tell everyone to just work hard but these Caribbean schools are money-making businesses and if they need to screw you, they will screw you. So I want to at least open your eyes to how they are doing that and I believe I am accomplishing that. For example, at my school they had eight hours of mandatory lecture each day. If they recommend you study 1.5 hours for each hour of class lecture, well then you can't possibly study all that material everyday and you are going to fall behind. There is no reason for mandatory lecture but it's a method this school uses only to screw it's students over. Unfortunately all the prospective applicant sees is the 50-state approval, the low cost, and the opportunity. They miss everything else. 34 credits per semester? I had to get approval from two dean's at my undergrad just to take 19. 34 with mandatory attendance?

You be the judge who's advice you want to take. My argument is the Caribbean is everything they say it is and IT'S WORSE.

 

[Mikkus]

You're applauding that character Goro who says NOT to go to the Caribbean because you will end up as an Uber driver yet you are telling others not to take my advice about the Caribbean when I unearth administrative policies that essentially make it impossible for the average person to even graduate? Are you drinking the same juice Skip is drinking lol? Or are you some school rep? It's all mighty suspicious.

You're post is filled with "anecdotes" according to Skip. ..."I had friends..." Geez, when I start a sentence like that, you guys go bat **** crazy.

Nobody, on this planet at least, will apply for three cycles to MD and DO programs and THEN apply Caribbean. I would say 25% will apply to SGU as their first choice and the other 75% are probably applying after one cycle. Time is money and the "right" student will capitalize on that at SGU and that type of student will not come onto SDN and waste their time because they know what to do. I mean telling someone to apply to US programs for three cycles is the most stupid advice I have ever heard for two reasons. 1. Waste of time 2. If you got rejected twice, you AIN'T MEANT TO BE A DOCTOR!!! because your application probably sucks really bad. I mean think about that for a second. You got rejected, you improved your app for the next cycle and then got rejected again. At that point, you failed.

Regarding taking advice from people about the Caribbean, I'm going to break this down into accessible language that even Skip and Mikkus will be able to understand ok...

1. The Caribbean experience is made up of two VERY DIFFERENT components. Pre-clinical and clinical medicine. You have to pass the pre-clinical part successfully to make it to the clinical part of the program. There are many steps in between both.

2. My focus is purely on PRE-CLINICAL medicine. A lot of people who are accepted to these schools are not qualified to pass this part of the program and this is where all the problems with the Caribbean stem from. When you mess up during the pre-clinical years, you'll either fail out or worse, set yourself up for disaster with a poor STEP score. Pre-clinical medicine should lead to a successful STEP 1 score which will then make it easier for you to navigate year three and move forward. You take shelf exams during your third year but anybody will tell you that they are not like the exams you take during basic sciences. Again, this is a part that some of these characters here don't want to tell you about. They just want to bunch medical school all together for some reason. That's not how it works. During his surgical rotation, "My friend" (sigh) read a book called "Dr. Pestana's Surgical Notes" from front to back and got an A+ on that rotation. Try doing something like that for STEP 1.

3. If you successfully make it to the clinical years with above-average grades and no blemishes to your transcript, I think you can succeed. And I've been making the argument that succeeding is easier at SGU because of the infrastructure that the school has compared to most other schools. Take a look at SGU's clinical site list. That takes money and reputation to sustain. Some of these smaller schools lose clinical locations DURING AN ONGOING TERM. Why doesn't Skip or Mikkus tell you guys that information? Makes you wonder right?

4. The Caribbean today is not the Caribbean of yesteryear. That's just a fact. What worked for some student's back in 2001 WILL NOT WORK FOR YOU TODAY. Also, we have Canadian students and international students on this site and things are even harder for them. It would be nice to tell everyone to just work hard but these Caribbean schools are money-making businesses and if they need to screw you, they will screw you. So I want to at least open your eyes to how they are doing that and I believe I am accomplishing that. For example, at my school they had eight hours of mandatory lecture each day. If they recommend you study 1.5 hours for each hour of class lecture, well then you can't possibly study all that material everyday and you are going to fall behind. There is no reason for mandatory lecture but it's a method this school uses only to screw it's students over. Unfortunately all the prospective applicant sees is the 50-state approval, the low cost, and the opportunity. They miss everything else. 34 credits per semester? I had to get approval from two dean's at my undergrad just to take 19. 34 with mandatory attendance?

You be the judge who's advice you want to take. My argument is the Caribbean is everything they say it is and IT'S WORSE.

The funny part is we are arguing almost the same thing at this point, you are just doing it in a much more aggressive manner, with some ill informed ideas. My first thread here read something like "I went to a carib med school, ask me why you should stay away." I agree that it hard, but possible for the right people. I agree they weed out students, have horrible schedules, are a terrible choice for a Canadian student, ect. What I was pointing out is that SGU and Ross have similar infrastructure. Even SGU doesn't guarantee you'll be placed in a clinical center for rotations. You could be in a different location every month.
I think if you actually graduated from one of these schools and watched friends not match, you would be able to understand Goros side better.

"Regarding MUA, it is a 50-state approved school today so I don't know why you are making fun of me for going there lol. Ross, MUA...same thing, different name. Did I miss something?"
I don't want to speak for Skip, but quotes like these are what rub me the wrong way. This is not true. Ross is on a whole different playing field than MUA. I don't really understand how you can cheer lead for SGU and put down Ross at the same time.

 

[aformerstudent]

Ross is on a whole different playing field than MUA

Mikkus,

I'm not trying to disrespect you my friend but IMG is IMG. That's the sad truth. I only put SGU on a pedestal because, like I pointed out earlier, the school does have a very impressive clinical location list with SGU-alum as faculty. I have friends (sigh again) at SGU who are rotating alongside NYMC third years at much larger hospitals than my classmates at MUA are going to end up at. SGU is on another level compared to all of these other schools but in the end you're still an IMG even at SGU. For the right student, SGU could be the opportunity that they need. If you read all of my posts Mikkus, you will also see that I clearly tell students to aim for a "B-average" or better. I don't recommend anything else based on what I have seen. My friends (sigh yet again!) with 82 or better are completing THIRD AND FOURTH year at one clinical center. ONE CLINICAL CENTER THAT HAS THE RESIDENCY THEY ARE LOOKING FOR. None of those schools can afford you that opportunity even with hard work. So you're misleading everyone yet again. Again, if you want to challenge me, call administration.

If you ask a reputable, unbiased, third year or even a program director, they are going to tell you that all that matters is getting your MD and matching. In that situation, Ross, MUA, and the newly accredited "Caribbean Skool of Brain Surjery and Economics" are the same thing essentially.

Lets agree on one thing here, there are some programs that don't even interview IMG's and there are programs that will only interview SGU grads. That's a convenient fact you and some others refuse to bring up. And don't post silly numbers that the average person couldn't decipher or even understand. Post stories of Caribbean students with STEP scores at 240 who only get two interviews.

Explain to me why you think Ross is on a different playing field? That's what ROSS WANTS YOU TO BELIEVE and you're buying into that. Any reasonable person will understand that, in the end, there is nothing Ross will offer you that MUA, AUA, or even a much smaller school can't. Do third years go around comparing where they went to school?

I'm not putting down Ross at all, I'm just saying it's SGU, and then every other school. Some student may feel that Ross is the right fit for them and then Ross becomes a good choice. A lot of people ended up at MUA and not Ross because of the cost or because they failed the MERP. Each of these schools caters to a different level of mediocre student. That's what I want people to start seeing. The Caribbean is a maze that requires a lot of navigating and strategy.

 

[Mikkus]

Why do you feel you are the expert in this matter, having never matched? How many residency interviews have you attended? How many PD's have you spoke with who have told you they only interview SGU grads and not Ross? Name recognition matters, even if you don't believe so. A Ross/SGU student will generally get picked over an equal Windsor student.
I'm not normally this abrasive, but some of your ideas are a bit out there.

 

[aformerstudent]

Why do you feel you are the expert in this matter, having never matched? How many residency interviews have you attended? How many PD's have you spoke with who have told you they only interview SGU grads and not Ross? Name recognition matters, even if you don't believe so. A Ross/SGU student will generally get picked over an equal Windsor student.
I'm not normally this abrasive, but some of your ideas are a bit out there.

I'm not going to argue with you dude. I don't think you're getting it and I'm sorry for that. I present facts, you either take it or leave it. This is not about me and never was actually. I have no agenda. My parents are wealthy. Med school or no med school, I still do alright without losing sleep.

If I have presented any information that is inaccurate, verify it with school administration, program directors, or graduates and then get back to me.

You personally, however, have a lot to research on this matter.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Looks like it may be time to dust off my "Carib MD Summary" post:

These threads are like open wounds that won't heal. The bottom line is that Carib schools (especially Med Schools) are a mixed bag. Calling them "a scam" or "a waste" is ridiculous. Saying that they are "equivalent to US schools" is also untrue:

1. They accept people who cannot get into a US medical school. Whether you see this as "giving deserving people who messed up their GPA / can't do well on the MCAT a second chance" or "leeching tuition off of desperate students who can't get into US medical schools" depends on how you view the situation.

2. Top performers in Carib schools will do fine, and be able to get mid-competitive fields /spots. Anesthesia, EM, Rads, University IM, etc. Ortho/NS/Vascular/Derm is very unlikely even for the top performers, and usually requires years of research and/or connections.

3. Middle performers will also do fine, but often end up in FM / Community IM / peds / Psych / Neuro. Nothing wrong with those fields, but those attending Carib schools should understand that their choices may be limited.

4. Those at the bottom of their class, failing a class, or worse failing a step, often have much more problems. Students retake, pass, and then think everything will be OK, and it might not be. These students might still match, but it's much harder.

5. A reasonable percentage of all students starting in carib schools fail out in the first 2 years. Exactly how high that percentage is, is unclear. It clearly varies by school. Some see this as "The school takes more students than it has clinical spots for, and then fails them out to make more money". Others see it as "These schools know that some percentage of students will fail out. Rather than leave clinical spots empty, they take enough pre-clinical students so that their clinical spots are filled -- this offers the maximum number of students an opportunity to be a physician". The crux is whether the pass level is adjusted specifically to fail out people, or whether it's set at some reasonable benchmark and some people happen to fail.

The other part of this discussion usually revolves around "Well, the school takes people with very low MCAT's and then they fail out -- it's a scam and they should have a higher MCAT cutoff". Data from the LCME shows that lower MCAT scores tend to be associated with failing the USMLE. But population statistics don't tell you how any one person will do -- some people with low MCAT's do just fine. So, again, how you interpret this depends upon how you look at it.

6. Not all schools are created equal. The most established schools are SGU and Ross, and from my viewpoint the two are probably equivalent. SGU appears to be more expensive (although prices change, this may not be accurate in the future). Ross appears to take more students and appears to have a higher drop out rate, although no school publishes their drop out rate so it's hard to be certain. AUC and Saba are often included in the "top 4", AUC is on the "best/safest" (but most expensive) island, and Saba is often touted as the cheapest. There are many others of varying quality -- expect higher drop out rates and worse match outcomes.

7. If you fail out of med school, or can't match to a residency, you really have limited options. A partial MD is of no value. An MD without a residency is also of very limited value, especially an international degree. People talk about "consulting", but I've never seen that actually happen. There are several stories of people getting jobs working for insurance companies, or state disability office, etc. These positions don't pay well, but at least they are something and might qualify for PSLF.

8. If you fail out of school, or can't find a residency because of poor performance, your loans are non-dischargable. Paying them off is very difficult. PSLF or "extreme hardship" may be able to discharge them after 10+ years. if you have a cosigner, they are on the hook just as much as you.

9. US med schools have increased their class size. Residency spots are also increasing slowly. So far, it hasn't been a problem. It may be that as time goes forward, that IMG's will have further trouble getting even IM and FM spots and the change might happen between the time you matriculate and graduate. But, the opposite might be true also -- spots might grow at a higher rate than students.

So: Going to a Carib school is an uphill process. You need to work harder and be better than your US colleagues to do "equally" well. Carib schools often tout their successes, and ignore the students who never make it to graduation, are only able to get a prelim spot, or not match at all. Yet, at the better carib schools, the majority of students probably succeed (again, difficult to say due to lack of transparency), mainly in the primary care fields. Advertising from these schools (on their websites) doesn't do a great job of balancing these risks and benefits. Threads on SDN tend to tout the negatives, which is probably healthy so that prospective students see the dangers involved.

 

[aformerstudent]

Thank you @aProgDirector

Helping some of those other guys to see the light is quite laborious.

 

[ThoracicGuy]

Thank you @aProgDirector

Helping some of those other guys to see the light is quite laborious.

Since you list your status as 'Medical Student', you should probably change it since you aren't one. Truth in advertising and all that...

 

[aformerstudent]

Since you list your status as 'Medical Student', you should probably change it since you aren't one. Truth in advertising and all that...

I am one actually until I let MUA know that I do now want to complete the program.

Have about another year left to let them know.

Trying to be real slick there big man lol.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Thank you @aProgDirector

Helping some of those other guys to see the light is quite laborious.

Honestly, the post was mostly for you. But the two of you are bickering and not helping the discussion at all, so really it was for everyone. But that includes you.

Being a withdrawn student from MUA doesn't make you an expert in every Caribbean school. Ross and SGU both appear to have similar quality, to suggest otherwise is disingenuous. Some of your posts seem to suggest that all Carib schools put you on the same footing, and that's not really true.

Applying for 2-3 cycles of US MD/DO is totally a reasonable plan. Assuming that the applicant is working towards improving their application, it certainly can be successful. Yes, you do lose out on some potential income by delaying your training, but if you get a better pick of specialties and programs, that may well be worth it to many people.

I'm not convinced that things are all that different from 2001. The size of carib schools have increased, and there's a bunch of newer ones. But the number of residency spots has increased also, and seems to have kept pace for now. So the match situation is probably similar -- but in fact, we can look that up. The NRMP posts all of it's data going back over 20 years. In 2001, there were 3400 US IMG's in the match. I'm going to assume that most/all of them were from the Carib (the data tables from 2001 don't break this down in any way). 1400 withdrew or didn't submit a rank list -- I expect that many of them prematched (which was available then). Of the remaining 2000, just over 50% matched. If we assume that half of those applicants who withdrew/no rank list prematched, that's about a 70% match rate, which is similar to today. Reviewing specialty match rates, a (relatively) large number of IMG's matched into Derm and Ortho compared with today (although there were a bunch of unfilled ortho spots, so obviously times have changed). So the overall match rate of IMG's looks mostly unchanged to me, with a shift in specialties open to IMG's (which will shift with the competitiveness / desirability of those fields by US grads over time).

 

[aformerstudent]

Being a withdrawn student from MUA doesn't make you an expert in every Caribbean school.

I won't argue with you about it because you're a moderator but IMG is IMG. That's where my argument comes from and why I put SGU above the other programs as their program does have some valuable resources the others don't. But in the end, it's all the IMG label.

This is a Caribbean forum and I promise you none of these students are applying 2-3 cycles of MD/DO. That's our audience. If we were in the pre-allo forum, that would be different as the objective is different but that's not the case. You don't see me giving that crowd this advice. The people going to the Caribbean are not all MD rejects. There are a multitude of people who are not qualified to apply to a US program who go to these schools. I mean at MUA, you had people who had zero hours of clinical experience. I'm talking to that type of audience because I know that's who is mainly applying to these types of schools and if they're not careful they will be had.

I work in healthcare at a hospital with IM and FM programs that are filled by 99% of IMG's and FMG's. I've spoken to our clinical faculty and clinical directors and unless they are lying to me they all say that things are very different today compared to a decade ago. When I told one doc I was going to MUA, he discouraged me and said "I wouldnt' send my son to the Caribbean today." My hospital's eight IM spots were are all filled by SGU grads this year. The website states that you can apply with a 200 STEP 1 and 2 on your first attempt but she has 3800 applicants for those eight spots. You better believe you are not getting one of those spots unless you are well above that 200. I want people to understand that. Some others make it seem like "Yeah you'll be good with the 200 since you were able to graduate from some school."

I'm not some guy sitting behind a computer Googling this stuff like some people here; I see what I speak of in real time everyday and you better believe I will say something if I feel people are being misled.

My arguments are detailed with facts. Some of these other guy's provide no facts just feel good advice. That is no way to navigate the Caribbean.

 

[mcat_taker]

Thank you @aProgDirector

Helping some of those other guys to see the light is quite laborious.

aProgDirector just offered up that Ross/SGU are equivalent, which is directly contradicting you. SGU isn't any better than Ross. They are held as equals, and every other carib school falls somewhere below those two. I think any successful Carib students will tell you to only focus on those 2 schools if you are looking to the carib for your education because you are most likely to find success there. This is a no brainer. There are plenty of Ross alumni on this board who can vouch for their school as being equal to SGU. Bottom line, no one here is advocating for MUA, on that everyone agrees on. So not sure why you keep bashing it-- everyone's on the same side when it comes to MUA.

 

[aformerstudent]

Who are you?

They are held as equals, and every other carib school falls somewhere below those two.

And you know this how lol?

I stated in my last post that the hospital I work at has eight PGY-1 IM spots and they are mostly taken by SGU grads and this year they were ALL taken by SGU grads. If SGU and Ross were equal, there would be at least one Ross grad in that group.

Regarding MUA, it's a 50-state approved school. It's the least expensive of any of the 50-state approved schools, and people actually do match from there so don't go down that route of knocking MUA...JUST BECAUSE IT'S MUA and all you know is SGU and ROSS. That's not how it works. If you want to become a doctor and you can't get loans for SGU, ROSS, or AUC and you are Canadian especially, you end up at MUA. Some of my classmates got accepted to SGU, Ross, and AUC but could not afford it because apparently the Canadian loan situation does not cover the full cost of attendance so they came to MUA. So try to think about everything more holistically as to why someone would go to MUA. And I've pointed it out before, each of these schools exists to attract a certain type of desperate/mediocre/ or whatever situation is unique to that student. If MUA was a $30K/year school, it would go out of business tomorrow because no one would apply.

aProgDirector just offered up that Ross/SGU are equivalent

Yes, that's great if @aProgDirector is looking at your application.

There are plenty of Ross alumni on this board who can vouch for their school as being equal to SGU.

And how exactly would they know this? Did they go to both schools simultaneously lol?

I never compared SGU to Ross because I know nothing about Ross other than a few alumni I worked with who said they hated Dominica. I only know that SGU has more resources than any Caribbean program and that is an undisputed fact. Look at the clinical locations and compare it to any other school. It's essentially the best opportunity you can buy when going down that route.

In the end IMG is IMG. MUA put a guy in Hopkins for surgery. It happens.

 

[ThoracicGuy]

In the end IMG is IMG. MUA put a guy in Hopkins for surgery. It happens.

Probably as a prelim. That's not so impressive.

MUA is not considered to be as good as Ross or SGU. Yes, they are all img, but not all img are equal. Just because you might succeed at MUA doesn't mean you should go there over other schools. Also, any Caribbean school should be a last resort compared to US based schools.

But keep trolling!

 

[aformerstudent]

Probably as a prelim. That's not so impressive.

MUA is not considered to be as good as Ross or SGU. Yes, they are all img, but not all img are equal. Just because you might succeed at MUA doesn't mean you should go there over other schools. Also, any Caribbean school should be a last resort compared to US based schools.

But keep trolling!