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uh... maybe wait until you rotate in it?

As for demand.. it's in huge demand. Doesn't mean that you will be good at it or make mucho bucks at it.

You have to WANT to be involved in psych and be good at dealing with individuals with sometimes really sad.. depressing.. and emotionally savage stories... like teens who were abused and raped by their guardians that self admittedly want to murder their parents (just one example told to me by a friend who is currently in rotations).

This is not a field for everybody.

Salary will differ depending on where you work and want to go to practice... like any field.

Stress is subjective. Medicine as a whole is stressful.

Pick psych because you actually WANT to help those with mental and emotional problems and are interested in the neurological pathology behind some of the disease processes in psych.

Or else you will just be throwing pills and creating more zombies.
 
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Psych is still very much in demand on the east coast, but salaries are lower than what everyone else on this board says. Still worthwhile, imo.
 
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FlowRate said:
Academics is like 140-150k. The high end of fresh out of residency non-academic employed positions that I've heard is 220kish.
Click to expand...

These numbers are old. Even top academic pure clinical job is paying close to 200k now. You only get 140k job if you are a researcher in a eat what you kill system. I think it'd be hard to recruit a permanent person at a private facility who will stay long for less than 250k even in major metros. In wealthy suburbs your all in comp can with some work exceed 300k even with a facility job with incentives.

Pure cash PP full time owners are starting to give me unreal numbers--unclear if it's real or not tho don't know why they would lie and if they lied it'd prolly be lying down rather than up... but I've talked about that in other threads. Unless you know what you are doing that probably won't be you. I think the NE has a lower median but much wider range.
 
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FlowRate said:
Academics is like 140-150k. The high end of fresh out of residency non-academic employed positions that I've heard is 220kish.
Click to expand...
Academic jobs in NJ for C&A were $165-$180k when I looked last year (before negotiation).
 
sluox said:
These numbers are old. Even top academic pure clinical job is paying close to 200k now. You only get 140k job if you are a researcher in a eat what you kill system. I think it'd be hard to recruit a permanent person at a private facility who will stay long for less than 250k even in major metros. In wealthy suburbs your all in comp can with some work exceed 300k even with a facility job with incentives.

Pure cash PP full time owners are starting to give me unreal numbers--unclear if it's real or not tho don't know why they would lie and if they lied it'd prolly be lying down rather than up... but I've talked about that in other threads. Unless you know what you are doing that probably won't be you. I think the NE has a lower median but much wider range.
Click to expand...

What do you mean unreal numbers? Are we talking 800k+?
 
sluox said:
These numbers are old. Even top academic pure clinical job is paying close to 200k now. You only get 140k job if you are a researcher in a eat what you kill system.
Click to expand...
While salaries have gone up across the board, I can tell you that there are still many clinician educator jobs out there that pay closer to 100 than they do 200 - and no one is going to be paying you 200k for working at an academic medical center in the NE out of training. one of my friends was offered 130k for a child psych job at one center of excellence lol, another suggested I might want to work for them for free! (I **** you not). Some of the big names are still deluding themselves that people will be happy to dine on prestige alone. If you want 200k+ in academics you have to work at an academic affiliated hospital and that may be no guarantee (there is variation but I was offered 200+ only from academic affiliates not academic medical centers). In NYC and Boston junior faculty are basically expected to have a private practice to supplement their income which are the better regarded programs is poor; even the not so good programs are paying uncompetitively for the most part. Of course, one can make a lot more in non-academic jobs which really set the floor with salaries, and you will also make more outside of the NE in employed positions.
 
"Some of the big names are still deluding themselves that people will be happy to dine on prestige alone."

This is true and has pretty much always been the case. It hasn't changed in forever. Big name's attitude: "Aren't you so special and blessed to be working here with us? What else more could you possibly want or need?"
 
sluox said:
These numbers are old. Even top academic pure clinical job is paying close to 200k now. You only get 140k job if you are a researcher in a eat what you kill system. I think it'd be hard to recruit a permanent person at a private facility who will stay long for less than 250k even in major metros. In wealthy suburbs your all in comp can with some work exceed 300k even with a facility job with incentives.

Pure cash PP full time owners are starting to give me unreal numbers--unclear if it's real or not tho don't know why they would lie and if they lied it'd prolly be lying down rather than up... but I've talked about that in other threads. Unless you know what you are doing that probably won't be you. I think the NE has a lower median but much wider range.
Click to expand...
This is literally what [top academic hospitals in the NE city I live in] pay right now to people who get one half day per week of protected academic time. Today. Not old. I, too, was shocked when I heard these numbers, as they're old everywhere else in the country.
 
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FlowRate said:
This is literally what [top academic hospitals in the NE city I live in] pay right now to people who get one half day per week of protected academic time. Today. Not old. I, too, was shocked when I heard these numbers, as they're old everywhere else in the country.
Click to expand...

lol I think I know where your [top academic hospitals in the NE city I live in] is. There is only one place that does this I know of. They should move to my [top academic hospitals in the NE city I live in], since we were once the only other place that did this, and just raised salary to close to 200k after much protestation from an affiliated institution.

People do leave. I've been here for a while and the resume (I wouldn't say quality, since that's not necessarily correlated to resume) of junior clinical faculty is dropping precipitously in the last 5 years. I think "the leadership" stopped caring... they just need to fill the space and make money...

To be fair, when they pay 130k the implicit assumption is you will work somewhere else on the side. Prestige is worth something, but not 100k per year for 30 years...unless you are already wealthy...and you'd be surprised how many of those who work at [top academic hospitals in the NE city I live in] who "don't care about money" and "are so passionate about X aspect of psychiatry that doesn't pay high salary" are born or married rich.
 
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splik said:
Of course, one can make a lot more in non-academic jobs which really set the floor with salaries, and you will also make more outside of the NE in employed positions.
Click to expand...

I don't doubt at all what you say...though that's kinda not the OPs question, given how few people end up in those types of jobs, and I said they often tend to be people who really "don't care about money". One level down though even at an "academic" program you can get paid 250 full time clinical. I'm starting to tell people that when you hear a low ball number you should start with doubling it. People will exploit you. It IS #America. Lol.
 
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michaelrack said:
the bottom # for residency-graduated, board eligible psychiatrist, non-academic, full-time is 200k, except for a few metro areas.
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Would most non-academic employers be expecting call coverage at rates in the low-200s, do you think?
 
Attendings at a lot of the hospitals that I work in (Boston area) are paid around 140k. Not a lot of money but they like having the name of the academic centre that the hospitals are affiliated with.
 
The VA affiliated with my residency program is offering 260k starting out. Ill know how good/bad this salary is when I rotate through there, lol.
 
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OldPsychDoc said:
Go West, Young Docs!

Lifestyle & $$$ much better in Midwest.
Click to expand...

I've lived on the east coast all my life though : (. But when I interviewed in Kansas City, me and the SO loved that place. Really beautiful city. I had a few midwest interviews but I was really curious about seeing the residency program in Indiana but did not get an invite there. I always seem to stay in relatively the same area for college/med school/residency etc so I'm guessing I'm somehow rooted in the southeast, lol.
 
The northeast is getting an overly negative review for academic jobs on this thread - I am sure the really bad pay is true for Boston, but at UConn, Vermont, Brown, Dartmouth (all prestigious academic medical centers) they are offering very close to $200k and Yale is $160s-180s. Of course there are some who consider Boston the only real city in New England :)
 
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license43 said:
Hi all, currently a Medical student... Thinking a little about psychiatry. But I heard mixed reviews from psychiatry getting the short end of the stick, not having lots patients, low pay, etc...

What is generally the average salary psychiatry? I did my own research and saw its in the range of 180k starting... Could be 200+k of course with the obvious working more hours.

How does psychiatry salary, demand, lifestyle compare to that of Physical medicine, neurology, family med, internal med. ...

Is it also very stressful???
Click to expand...

I'm moonlighting in a private practice as a Resident, bringing in $1,000 for 6-7 hours of work outpatient. This is at a rate, I assume is discounted from what I'd earn as board certified. Do the math... if I drop out of residency right now, and work at this office, 5 days a week would be about 240,000 a year... and that's at the low end in a crappy saturated market... AS A RESIDENT.
 
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tyrionlannister00 said:
I'm moonlighting in a private practice as a Resident, bringing in $1,000 for 6-7 hours of work outpatient. This is at a rate, I assume is discounted from what I'd earn as board certified. Do the math... if I drop out of residency right now, and work at this office, 5 days a week would be about 240,000 a year... and that's at the low end in a crappy saturated market... AS A RESIDENT.
Click to expand...
That is probably 1099 income; That is approximately equivalent to a 225K for a regular employed full time position
 
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tyrionlannister00 said:
I'm moonlighting in a private practice as a Resident, bringing in $1,000 for 6-7 hours of work outpatient. This is at a rate, I assume is discounted from what I'd earn as board certified. Do the math... if I drop out of residency right now, and work at this office, 5 days a week would be about 240,000 a year... and that's at the low end in a crappy saturated market... AS A RESIDENT.
Click to expand...

I've never heard of residents doing that much money with moonlighting.
 
Ahamis said:
As a resident?
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I am always confused why people think it is different whether you are a resident or not. Unless you are moonlighting in the role of a resident (i.e. internally moonlighting as a resident), you should be expected to be paid the same for working as a psychiatrist doing a moonlighting gig regardless of whether you are a PGY-3 vs. a psychiatrist 10 years out of practice since you are doing the same role. Now I am sure there are plenty of residents who end of working for less, but I was always paid the same as I would have if I hadn't been a resident, and I know plenty of people for whom this was also true but if they need you then you should be paid the same. This might be geographically dependent, but it has certainly held true over different locations for me.

Where the above about quitting residency is specious is that most resident moonlighting is done on the basis that you're a resident. If you quit residency you will find your options will suddenly shrink...
 
SmallBird said:
The northeast is getting an overly negative review for academic jobs on this thread - I am sure the really bad pay is true for Boston, but at UConn, Vermont, Brown, Dartmouth (all prestigious academic medical centers) they are offering very close to $200k and Yale is $160s-180s. Of course there are some who consider Boston the only real city in New England :)
Click to expand...

I agree and also think the salary threads I've read here are fairly consistent with what I know to be true in my area of Baltimore/Washington DC and the outlying areas of MD.
 
Well obviously I'm not going to drop out of residency was just extrapolating what the salary would be... In theory only... But yea my rate is about a thousand a day.
 
In NYC. Dr.Mcf@ckstick right out of residency can expect to start for 180k-ish. Which ... fine... then I'm coming to work like this:

rodney-dangerfield-comedy-1000x565.jpg
 
SmallBird said:
The northeast is getting an overly negative review for academic jobs on this thread - I am sure the really bad pay is true for Boston, but at UConn, Vermont, Brown, Dartmouth (all prestigious academic medical centers) they are offering very close to $200k and Yale is $160s-180s. Of course there are some who consider Boston the only real city in New England :)
Click to expand...
I really don't see the point of living in Providence or Lebanon. For me, there is little difference working in Brown or Dartmouth compared to decent midwest programs. Vermont and UConn are both well regarded medical centers but no one would consider it has "prestige" for being a faculty at either institution. I do think that this "prestige" jazz is worthless tbh. If you are a faculty, you would know that rank, grants and tenure track means more than being a life long instructor or lecturer at Harvard. Yale both has prestige and has some advantages being close to NYC and Boston, hence that would be the reason why it pays a bit less than aforementioned institutions but more than the NYC and Boston area (Don't get me wrong, I do love New Haven, especially their pizza).
 
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I'm graduating child fellowship this week. Have a number of recent adult and child psych friends with various incomes. Some samples:

Child PP: $300k/yr, going rate in my area is $250/hr, which is pretty much what every practice charges.
Inpatient Child, State Hospital: $160/hr
Telemedicine (child or adult): $140-180/hr (varies depending on job)
Gulf Florida VA Inpatient/Outpatient Mix: $260k/yr
Outpatient Adult, employed by a private health system: $280k/yr + also does a Suboxone clinic on the side and clears $350-400k

Just some documented examples.
 
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Billy_27 said:
I really don't see the point of living in Providence or Lebanon. For me, there is little difference working in Brown or Dartmouth compared to decent midwest programs. Vermont and UConn are both well regarded medical centers but no one would consider it has "prestige" for being a faculty at either institution. I do think that this "prestige" jazz is worthless tbh. If you are a faculty, you would know that rank, grants and tenure track means more than being a life long instructor or lecturer at Harvard. Yale both has prestige and has some advantages being close to NYC and Boston, hence that would be the reason why it pays a bit less than aforementioned institutions but more than the NYC and Boston area (Don't get me wrong, I do love New Haven, especially their pizza).
Click to expand...

I love all of New England, but my point here is not that these places are better than the Midwest - I was mainly highlighting how the statements about academic jobs in the Northeast paying very poorly applies mostly to Boston and NYC. We can dispute the prestige and livability of other places - I'm merely trying to insist that they exist :)

BTW I just moved to Providence and although I have profound grief about leaving my prior institution I love everything about the location - it meets my needs exactly and is the size of city I like. I have no doubt someone might find equal satisfaction living in the Midwest if it matches their own needs.
 
So I'm pretty familiar with NYC area jobs:

Academic Manhattan Jobs (Prestige, "Big Names"): 160k-180k
You can do PP on the side, but remember they take roughly 50% cut.

Head out to the other 4 boros, and academic affiliated jobs pay around 220k +/- 10k (35-40 hr/week). If you have a fellowship, you can expect +10K.
But of course, there is less "prestige" for whatever that means to you.

Average moonlighting in the 4 boros outside of the city is $130-$150/hr. But I have heard hospitals in the Bronx and Long Island pay around $200/hr to moonlight.

I know residents working in a community/academic affiliated hospitals in the outer boros making 230k for 35-40 hr weeks, some doing 4 x 8s or 3x12s, inpatient/ER/outpatient. Then PP on the side, maybe like 10-12 hours/week at $300/hr, thats the starting/going rate. If you are a "big shot", you can pull in $400-450/hr. And remember community hospitals don't take a cut from your PP. And of course there are people doing cash only Ketamine/rTMS, but thats a whole different ballgame.

So if you come to NYC, you can EASILY make 300k your first year out of graduation, if you avoid manhattan names. The trick is have a 220k day job in a community/academic affiliated job, and then do some PP in the evenings (In Manhattan/BK where people have $) and/or moonlight a bit on the weekends, per diem shifts. But yes, the perks of working in a large manhattan academic centre are: prestige, bolster your CV, residents do most of the work, get your name in big journals, be involved with clinical trials, have hospital take care of overhead/malpractice issues. But the trade off is a 100K cut.

But I tell everyone that NYC is paradoxal. While in all other specialities, working in NYC/LA means a pay cut, psych is one of the few where you can actually make more money in these markets. Because people in NYC/LA/SF actually care about mental health, and have the pockets to pay $300/hr weekly. So if you "work hard" (55-60 hours/week) and are nice to patients (which is easy) you can definitely hit 400-500k in NYC. And if you dabble into ketamine/rTMS the sky is the limit in NYC. Oh and I put "work hard" in quotes because 60 hrs/week is an average week for a general surgeon/cardiologist, so its all relative.

And all these numbers are for adult psych. I've heard some frightening child psych hourly rates in Manhattan ($700/hr?!). But I'm not very knowledgeable on C&A.
 
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Blitz2006 said:
So I'm pretty familiar with NYC area jobs:

Academic Manhattan Jobs (Prestige, "Big Names"): 160k-180k
You can do PP on the side, but remember they take roughly 50% cut.

Head out to the other 4 boros, and academic affiliated jobs pay around 220k +/- 10k (35-40 hr/week). If you have a fellowship, you can expect +10K.
But of course, there is less "prestige" for whatever that means to you.

Average moonlighting in the 4 boros outside of the city is $130-$150/hr. But I have heard hospitals in the Bronx and Long Island pay around $200/hr to moonlight.

I know residents working in a community/academic affiliated hospitals in the outer boros making 230k for 35-40 hr weeks, some doing 4 x 8s or 3x12s, inpatient/ER/outpatient. Then PP on the side, maybe like 10-12 hours/week at $300/hr, thats the starting/going rate. If you are a "big shot", you can pull in $400-450/hr. And remember community hospitals don't take a cut from your PP. And of course there are people doing cash only Ketamine/rTMS, but thats a whole different ballgame.

So if you come to NYC, you can EASILY make 300k your first year out of graduation, if you avoid manhattan names. The trick is have a 220k day job in a community/academic affiliated job, and then do some PP in the evenings (In Manhattan/BK where people have $) and/or moonlight a bit on the weekends, per diem shifts. But yes, the perks of working in a large manhattan academic centre are: prestige, bolster your CV, residents do most of the work, get your name in big journals, be involved with clinical trials, have hospital take care of overhead/malpractice issues. But the trade off is a 100K cut.

But I tell everyone that NYC is paradoxal. While in all other specialities, working in NYC/LA means a pay cut, psych is one of the few where you can actually make more money in these markets. Because people in NYC/LA/SF actually care about mental health, and have the pockets to pay $300/hr weekly. So if you "work hard" (55-60 hours/week) and are nice to patients (which is easy) you can definitely hit 400-500k in NYC. And if you dabble into ketamine/rTMS the sky is the limit in NYC. Oh and I put "work hard" in quotes because 60 hrs/week is an average week for a general surgeon/cardiologist, so its all relative.

And all these numbers are for adult psych. I've heard some frightening child psych hourly rates in Manhattan ($700/hr?!). But I'm not very knowledgeable on C&A.
Click to expand...

You forgot to add, YMMV.
 
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What are docs making off these ketamine infusions?

Blitz2006 said:
So I'm pretty familiar with NYC area jobs:

Academic Manhattan Jobs (Prestige, "Big Names"): 160k-180k
You can do PP on the side, but remember they take roughly 50% cut.

Head out to the other 4 boros, and academic affiliated jobs pay around 220k +/- 10k (35-40 hr/week). If you have a fellowship, you can expect +10K.
But of course, there is less "prestige" for whatever that means to you.

Average moonlighting in the 4 boros outside of the city is $130-$150/hr. But I have heard hospitals in the Bronx and Long Island pay around $200/hr to moonlight.

I know residents working in a community/academic affiliated hospitals in the outer boros making 230k for 35-40 hr weeks, some doing 4 x 8s or 3x12s, inpatient/ER/outpatient. Then PP on the side, maybe like 10-12 hours/week at $300/hr, thats the starting/going rate. If you are a "big shot", you can pull in $400-450/hr. And remember community hospitals don't take a cut from your PP. And of course there are people doing cash only Ketamine/rTMS, but thats a whole different ballgame.

So if you come to NYC, you can EASILY make 300k your first year out of graduation, if you avoid manhattan names. The trick is have a 220k day job in a community/academic affiliated job, and then do some PP in the evenings (In Manhattan/BK where people have $) and/or moonlight a bit on the weekends, per diem shifts. But yes, the perks of working in a large manhattan academic centre are: prestige, bolster your CV, residents do most of the work, get your name in big journals, be involved with clinical trials, have hospital take care of overhead/malpractice issues. But the trade off is a 100K cut.

But I tell everyone that NYC is paradoxal. While in all other specialities, working in NYC/LA means a pay cut, psych is one of the few where you can actually make more money in these markets. Because people in NYC/LA/SF actually care about mental health, and have the pockets to pay $300/hr weekly. So if you "work hard" (55-60 hours/week) and are nice to patients (which is easy) you can definitely hit 400-500k in NYC. And if you dabble into ketamine/rTMS the sky is the limit in NYC. Oh and I put "work hard" in quotes because 60 hrs/week is an average week for a general surgeon/cardiologist, so its all relative.

And all these numbers are for adult psych. I've heard some frightening child psych hourly rates in Manhattan ($700/hr?!). But I'm not very knowledgeable on C&A.
Click to expand...
 
hypoman said:
What are docs making off these ketamine infusions?
Click to expand...

Just FYI, I don't recommend cash IV ketamine as a long term solution. Janssen has a "breakthrough" nasal spray that's been shown to be equally effective if not more effective than infusion, without any of the possible dangerous associated with IV ketamine. It's very very close in getting FDA and will likely be a blockbuster.
 
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How do you think these numbers compare to popular Midwestern cities? I've noticed rural areas diverge dramatically from East coast numbers, but have been seeing numbers not far off from this in saturated/popular Midwest urban/semi-urban areas - i.e. low 200s for FT outpatient with no or light call, mid-200s for FT outpatient with fair amount of ED/inpatient coverage, and slightly higher for inpatient with coverage included. Does this seem about right to people who have looked in Midwestern cities? It's interesting to see these numbers vary by 30k or 50k or more with just a few hours drive difference but very similar jobs.
 
SteinUmStein said:
How do you think these numbers compare to popular Midwestern cities? I've noticed rural areas diverge dramatically from East coast numbers, but have been seeing numbers not far off from this in saturated/popular Midwest urban/semi-urban areas - i.e. low 200s for FT outpatient with no or light call, mid-200s for FT outpatient with fair amount of ED/inpatient coverage, and slightly higher for inpatient with coverage included. Does this seem about right to people who have looked in Midwestern cities? It's interesting to see these numbers vary by 30k or 50k or more with just a few hours drive difference but very similar jobs.
Click to expand...

You are 100% on the spot. The best jobs in metros are not facilities based, though if you just get an hour or two out of central business district you can on occasion see Idaho salaries in in major metros. Facility based jobs will always be lower pay in metros even for the Midwest because they will always be able to get bottom of the barrels people who don't want to move, and the facilities don't necessarily care, because the service tends to lose money anyway. Outside of metros, the shortage is so severe, even just getting the bottom of the barrels people. So they have to raise their salaries.

In major metros, the best "jobs" are private practice jobs, which don't recruit much via agents or are strictly performance based group practices. Thankfully unlike some other fields of medicine, this type of job is extremely easy to get. Just cold call any practice you think you are interested in and tell them you are a board eligible. I'm pretty sure any practice group that takes insurance would love to have you sign up as an associate-to-partner to share the costs and see more of the endless population of people who want to use their insurance to see an in-network psychiatrist. They might even front you a salary. Or they might front you a salary but it'll be structured as a loan. No matter, you'll be able to pay that back in no time. For a non-insurance based practice, I don't know why you'd need a group...since the overhead is so low. I've seen multiple Solo practices band together to lease space and hire staff, but their own practice is actually outside of this separate business. This IMHO is easier and better, since it's unlikely that you need the group cash flow to finance some major piece of equipment. The only reason you might want to create a group as a solo is if you want to buy expensive office space with another doc. This happens on occasion, but in general as I said in a different thread, commercial real estate is so dirt cheap that you can usually finance and buy an office suite on one full time salary.
 
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FlowRate said:
Academics is like 140-150k. The high end of fresh out of residency non-academic employed positions that I've heard is 220kish.
Click to expand...
This is about correct from what I've gathered. If I match, I'm planning on making around 200-210k given local market conditions post-residency.
 
sluox said:
These numbers are old. Even top academic pure clinical job is paying close to 200k now. You only get 140k job if you are a researcher in a eat what you kill system. I think it'd be hard to recruit a permanent person at a private facility who will stay long for less than 250k even in major metros. In wealthy suburbs your all in comp can with some work exceed 300k even with a facility job with incentives.

Pure cash PP full time owners are starting to give me unreal numbers--unclear if it's real or not tho don't know why they would lie and if they lied it'd prolly be lying down rather than up... but I've talked about that in other threads. Unless you know what you are doing that probably won't be you. I think the NE has a lower median but much wider range.
Click to expand...
I think the last ads I saw for the big academic place in my area were 170-210k DOE.
 
SteinUmStein said:
How do you think these numbers compare to popular Midwestern cities? I've noticed rural areas diverge dramatically from East coast numbers, but have been seeing numbers not far off from this in saturated/popular Midwest urban/semi-urban areas - i.e. low 200s for FT outpatient with no or light call, mid-200s for FT outpatient with fair amount of ED/inpatient coverage, and slightly higher for inpatient with coverage included. Does this seem about right to people who have looked in Midwestern cities? It's interesting to see these numbers vary by 30k or 50k or more with just a few hours drive difference but very similar jobs.
Click to expand...

What are the "popular" midwestern cities? Chicago? Where else?

What are the saturated midwest urban/semi-urban areas?

Where, on the other hand, are the opposite of the above? The less popular, unsaturated areas?

I ask because I am not from the midwest, and have no particular interest in any city, but I would consider moving there for the right pay and benefits. I don't really care about trendy, hipster stuff - just good pay in a decent enough area with an airport...
 
sluox said:
You are 100% on the spot. The best jobs in metros are not facilities based, though if you just get an hour or two out of central business district you can on occasion see Idaho salaries in in major metros. Facility based jobs will always be lower pay in metros even for the Midwest because they will always be able to get bottom of the barrels people who don't want to move, and the facilities don't necessarily care, because the service tends to lose money anyway. Outside of metros, the shortage is so severe, even just getting the bottom of the barrels people. So they have to raise their salaries.
Click to expand...

What is an "Idaho salary"? Is it a high salary for living in the sticks? Are Idaho salaries high, in general?
 
Psychotic said:
What are the "popular" midwestern cities? Chicago? Where else?

What are the saturated midwest urban/semi-urban areas?

Where, on the other hand, are the opposite of the above? The less popular, unsaturated areas?

I ask because I am not from the midwest, and have no particular interest in any city, but I would consider moving there for the right pay and benefits. I don't really care about trendy, hipster stuff - just good pay in a decent enough area with an airport...
Click to expand...


Other midwestern cities that are a touch trendy and certainly quite diverse and multicultural and big enough to not run out of stuff to do...Minneapolis, maybe?

Saturated areas? Maybe Ann Arbor? Madison?

Less popular - anything in KY, OH, I would assume most of MO. Probably IA for people with no ties there. IL once you get a good driving distance from Chicago. IN.
 
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Psychotic said:
What are the "popular" midwestern cities? Chicago? Where else?

What are the saturated midwest urban/semi-urban areas?

Where, on the other hand, are the opposite of the above? The less popular, unsaturated areas?

I ask because I am not from the midwest, and have no particular interest in any city, but I would consider moving there for the right pay and benefits. I don't really care about trendy, hipster stuff - just good pay in a decent enough area with an airport...
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Great question - I can only guess based on my experiences and my early job search. I was referring to my observation that I've seen relatively popular Midwest metro areas that look more saturated with medical providers (both psychiatrists and physicians in general) end up producing average employed job offers closer to the big East coast cities. This is in contrast to rural and less-saturated Midwest areas, which end up diverging dramatically in both job structure and compensation. Example - take a look at similar positions advertised online and by calling hospitals/groups in popular/trendy metro areas like Chicago, Twin Cities, Ann Arbor, (parts of) St. Louis, Madison, Kansas City, etc. From my overview so far, these urban areas have very different job openings and availability and very different compensation from areas even close-by - such as an hour or two drive from the airport/downtown area in some places (which to me is a short distance).

Truly underserved rural areas (read: often hundreds of miles with no mental health care providers and limited medical services) like much of North Dakota, South Dakota, rural Minnesota, rural Iowa, rural Wisconsin, southern Illinois, rural Missouri, etc. end up showing and aggressively advertising/recruiting much, much higher offers than metro areas even a few hours drive away. Take a look at popular job sites or talk to people working in those places and you'll see what people are talking about.

This might surprise no one. However, it was new to me and worth noting that popular/trendy/saturated metro Midwest cities can end up with a market producing positions and offers that look similar to those big name East coast cities. Correct me if I'm off or totally wrong as I'm still figuring this out - but some popular metro Midwest areas are showing employed FT positions for outpatient in the low 200's with minimal/no call/coverage (+/- small bonus, relocation, etc), up to mid-200s FT outpatient with required moderate call and unit coverage, and sometimes mid-200s or higher for FT inpatient work esp with higher census and more call. Overall the inpatient openings were offering more than OP, but I didn't control or look closely at census/coverage obligations. Obviously varies with setup and # patients seen, but that was the gist I got. This is excluding any kind of individual or small group private practice as I'm not there yet! I know solo private practice/small group/cash pay etc is a completely different question, one that I know nothing about. I also didn't look much at VAs, and I know VAs can vary widely between each other and by region.
 
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