Contract to do VA C/P exams

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Are you referring to something like urgency traits and impulsive behavior?


What about opponent processes? Wouldn't the endogenous processes to restore homeostasis in response to stimulants like nicotine produce something like "depressant (for lack of a better term)" effects? I'm not saying that I agreeing with what smokers are saying, I'm just asking if there is somewhat of a biological basis for part of this misconception about long-term nicotine use.

1). No. The literature finds alcohol susceptibility is a separate trait. It's not discussed as impulsivity or anything other than the vulnerability.

2) the opponent process in nicotine is caused by the constant administration of nicotine. First few times, nicotine produces a stimulating effect. Then there is up and down regulation of various receptors, the most commonly of which discussed is nicotinic. The source of the agitation is the nicotine withdrawal.

I don't agree with the self-medication hypothesis at all, but I am a bit comfused by what you are saying. Substance users do use drugs to regulate their emotions in various ways. Sometimes these are direct effects of the substance themselves, sometimes they can be other aspects of life. At times, they are mistaken in their perspectives at others they are accurate, but either way if they have an addiction the overall effect outweighs any potential beneficial reason for use.

Can you cite an empirical source for this?


I know some of this is infuriating. But we owe our patients and the public a duty to operate as scientist.

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That stuff is only in people who have a trait disposition to alcohol abuse and in specific PTSD etiologies. That's an exacerbation, not a cause...

...But in a person without the underlying personality structure, it is not likely for that to occur.
I don't disagree with you but I think you are overstating the available data on the specific PTSD comorbidities as well as personality structure. Can you provide some citations to support the certainty with which you have made your statements?
 
What about opponent processes? Wouldn't the endogenous processes to restore homeostasis in response to stimulants like nicotine produce something like "depressant (for lack of a better term)" effects?
I'd argue that the "break" part of a smoke break is the calming part, so while the nicotine does its part, I'm not sure there would be a counter response to it.

The common agitation from withdrawal can feel activating, so maybe that contributes?
 
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1). No. The literature finds alcohol susceptibility is a separate trait. It's not discussed as impulsivity or anything other than the vulnerability.

2) the opponent process in nicotine is caused by the constant administration of nicotine. First few times, nicotine produces a stimulating effect. Then there is up and down regulation of various receptors, the most commonly of which discussed is nicotinic. The source of the agitation is the nicotine withdrawal.



Can you cite an empirical source for this?


I know some of this is infuriating. But we owe our patients and the public a duty to operate as scientist.
I'm not sure what kind of empirical source would support that people use substances to affect their emotional state. That is just what people report they are using them for. For example, people use alcohol to reduce anxiety, physical pain, and for sedation. I am not sure why that would need to be proven empirically, but I imagine I could find the evidence to support that if so inclined. If you are questioning whether severe substance use or addiction, although that has become a less popular word these days, outweighs the perceived or alleged benefits or actually becomes or causes the problems it is treating, the mortality stats are pretty clear on that. Maybe I'm just not clear what we are disagreeing on.
 
I don't disagree with you but I think you are overstating the available data on the specific PTSD comorbidities as well as personality structure. Can you provide some citations to support the certainty with which you have made your statements?

Pragma, you're conflating two different ideas.

One is supported by the lack of support of the self medication hypothesis, the lack of support of a causative role, followed by such work as Tull, Read, gherkin, and others. IMO, Read's work uses an impressive methodology in a field that typically reports correlation or comorbidity. But she indicates alcohol use is a trait vulnerability.

The second part is a hypothetical example. It's imaginary. Can't prove it, just like you can't prove I'm not thinking of a griffin right now. The idea presented was the difference between cause, proximate cause, fragile eggshell, pre-existing condition, etc in legal doctrines. There's a very big difference in all of those. The author of the AMA guidelines specifically states the idea of "was never like this before" is not scientific.
 
Pragma, you're conflating two different ideas.

One is supported by the lack of support of the self medication hypothesis, the lack of support of a causative role, followed by such work as Tull, Read, gherkin, and others. IMO, Read's work uses an impressive methodology in a field that typically reports correlation or comorbidity. But she indicates alcohol use is a trait vulnerability.

The second part is a hypothetical example. It's imaginary. Can't prove it, just like you can't prove I'm not thinking of a griffin right now. The idea presented was the difference between cause, proximate cause, fragile eggshell, pre-existing condition, etc in legal doctrines. There's a very big difference in all of those. The author of the AMA guidelines specifically states the idea of "was never like this before" is not scientific.
What two ideas am I conflating? I just asked for data.

You presented some opinions about multiple topics and I asked for data about two of those topics. The topics were not conflated.
 
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I'd argue that the "break" part of a smoke break is the calming part, so while the nicotine does its part, I'm not sure there would be a counter response to it.

The common agitation from withdrawal can feel activating, so maybe that contributes?
I have seen evidence that nicotine also relieves the agitation that alcohol causes even in people who were chippers or non-addicted smokers. Can't find the source right now, but remember this very clearly.

Also, although nicotine is technically a CNS stimulant and alcohol is a CNS depressant, the way that they act on the brain is a bit more complex than that. Smoking also has been reported to have an emotional regulating or dampening effect which is likely what is experienced as calming.
Found this study which points in that direction http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1471-4159.2012.07785.x/full
and this study that reviews the literature on it and appears to posit that it is likley that emotions are regulated by nicotine but that studies really havent been conducted which can adequately test that hypothesis.
*edit* forgot to post the link. Sometimes it's hard to get my session note done and then make a salient and sage post and use the restroom all in the 10 to 15 minutes between appointments.
https://www.researchgate.net/profil...f_nicotine/links/5686d49908ae1e63f1f5ae4c.pdf
 
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Nicotine is primarily reinforced through it's action in the mesolimbic system, and from conditioning from non-nicotine factors. (the way the cig feels in the mouth, the smoke that goes up in the after they light it up, etc). I'd wager the calm people feel is actually the sameness of their experience over and over.
 
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Just wanted to add my own personal anecdotal experiences having used nicotine for 20 years and having discontinued the use for many years since. I actually quit prior to my internship and it is my personal observation that my emotional responses were heightened after discontinuing nicotine. i am not referring to the initial irritability and agitation during withdrawal phase either. I found that this effect began a few months after last use and has continued since. Especially noticed this with sadness or becoming tearful. The first time it happened was in my clinical supervisors office about four or five months into internship so it was a little embarrassing. Since then I have learned to modulate the response, but continue to have a stronger emotional response to situations that make me feel sad than I had during my use of nicotine. This is still the same even ten years later. It would be very difficult to test this, but I will say that I struggled mightily with emotional responses such as sadness or tearfulness when I was younger as it was not okay for boys to cry and I was one who would. I can't recall if this stopped being a problem for me at the same time I started smoking or not though, but there is definitely more to nicotine than what we know.
 
Yes. Think of it like a delusion. You wouldn't tell someone with a delusion that their belief that they could fly is accurate. The potential for harm is high. Positively reinforcing the delusion is against their best interest.

edit: Alternately, think of it like smoking. Smokers frequently say that smoking calms them down. But its a stimulant. The nicotine dependence is what is making them anxious/mad/etc.

So, you are seemingly admitting that folks sometimes use substances for their perceived effect on emotional or physiological states (even if counterproductive to the state they are trying to change)? Thought you were arguing against that?
 
So, you are seemingly admitting that folks sometimes use substances for their perceived effect on emotional or physiological states (even if counterproductive to the state they are trying to change)? Thought you were arguing against that?

The point is cause. Does X cause Y? No evidence of cause? Then one cannot say it X causes Y. Is X correlated with Y? If yes, then it's absolutely fine to say so.

Do people say that they use substances because they believe it helps with X substance? Absolutely. Is there objective evidence s that the diagnosis caused the use? No. Is there some correlation between symptom severity and severity of substance use? Yes.

In most civil litigation, this is a matter of hundreds of thousands of dollars per case. The type of litigation, state, and trial strategy play in this. Proximate cause? Cause? Shared liability? 51% state, etc.
 
It appears that two fundamental issues are: 1) separability / distinctiveness between the key constructs (vs. both being associated with 'third variables')...there are lots of things that may plausibly be said to 'cause' both substance abuse and any aspect of mental illness (up to and including DSM-V delimited 'disorders); and 2) even assuming #1 can be accomplished, attempting to establish 'causal' relations between one or the other....

and all of this is separable into a) are these causal relations operative at the population level and, if so b) are these causal relations operative at the INDIVIDUAL level (i.e., this patient who is making this specific disability claim)...

This is a lot to try to establish in the context of any particular clinical/assessment encounter.
 
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It appears that two fundamental issues are: 1) separability / distinctiveness between the key constructs (vs. both being associated with 'third variables')...there are lots of things that may plausibly be said to 'cause' both substance abuse and any aspect of mental illness (up to and including DSM-V delimited 'disorders); and 2) even assuming #1 can be accomplished, attempting to establish 'causal' relations between one or the other....

and all of this is separable into a) are these causal relations operative at the population level and, if so b) are these causal relations operative at the INDIVIDUAL level (i.e., this patient who is making this specific disability claim)...

This is a lot to try to establish in the context of any particular clinical/assessment encounter.

Sort of. The modified Bradford Hall criteria is used to determine causation. Population studies help with the plausibility arm. Then there are 6 more steps.

I'd encourage anyone seeing suds to read the history of the self medication hypothesis and ask, "if this is a hypothesis, do we accept the null hypothesis?" And "if it is not a hypothesis, then does this clinical idea help with treatment? How does this idea mesh with FDA pharmacological interventions for substance abuse? How does this idea mesh with the European psychotherapy models.
 
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Sorry to have missed most of this conversation, given its a huge area of interest for me. Ironically, was overseas chairing a symposium peripherally related to this exact topic. Random series of thoughts:
1) Operational definitions of self-medication are important as the term has broadened substantially and is no longer just one "theory". The original notion was that individuals would develop dependence on substances as a method of "self-medicating" other psychiatric disorders. PSYDR is right that evidence for this is VERY mixed and far from conclusive (arguably leaning in the other direction). In part, I think its because the notion is somewhat misguided in the first place and based on our somewhat archaic diagnostic system that we know is wrong but haven't yet come up with anything better. Healthy populations could self-medicate normal fluctuations in mood. Individuals with disorders could self-medicate "normal" aspects of their disorder. Disentangling normalizing/enhancing effects of drugs of abuse from withdrawal relief is unbelievably challenging.
2) Self-medicating some symptoms may or may not change the diagnosis. Again - archaic, clunky diagnostic system.
3) Clinically, I'd say the bulk of evidence leans towards "treat what is there - who cares what is 'primary'" anyways in the overwhelming majority of cases. You rarely see iatrogenic effects and usually see benefits from treatments addressing multiple topics. Heck, despite profound resistance to smoking cessation in addiction settings for years ("focus on recovery and worry about smoking later"), we're seeing growing evidence that it actually improves abstinence from drugs/alcohol. Studies are typically non-experimental though, so jury is ultimately still out on that one. I'm not sure much is gained clinically from thinking about self-medication, though I think it helps frame our understanding of the problems and is beneficial for understanding the reinforcing effects of drugs and potential future research.
4) Keep in mind the things people may be self-medicating can be known consequences, but not necessarily DSM criteria for the disorders in question or even easily measured (e.g. sensory gating in schizophrenia).
5) Also keep in mind that any "self-medicating" effects of drugs of abuse may be indirect, which means there are potential moderators, confounds, etc. to account for. For instance, both alcohol (Curtin et al., 2001) and nicotine (Kassel & Shiffman, 1997) may NOT directly impact mood - but do so indirectly via impact on cognitive control. This is going to be tricky to measure and means any self-medication success would likely be context-dependent. Either way - drugs of abuse are pharmacologically dirty, we can't expect effects to be clean. Any efforts to identify a single transmitter system are likely to fail.
6) Nicotine is particularly tricky, since its reinforcing effects are wacky. Its extremely addictive in the form of cigarettes in the general population of smokers. Its a terribly weak primary reinforcer and getting rats to self-administer it is a tremendous PITA compared to something like cocaine. Its action may be as a secondary reinforcer (see work by Donny, Caggiula, etc.) but we're struggling to measure that well in humans. The 2000 other additives in cigarettes certainly complicate things. Some evidence menthol and other factors may interact with nicotine, but aren't typically examined in the basic pharmacology studies. Nonetheless, environmental/social factors may play a stronger role than the drug itself when it comes to smoking.
7)
IMO, Read's work uses an impressive methodology in a field that typically reports correlation or comorbidity. But she indicates alcohol use is a trait vulnerability.
With all due respect (and assuming we're talking about the same Read), I know her and I'm extraordinarily doubtful she would describe alcohol dependence (let alone alcohol use) as strictly a trait vulnerability, though some individual studies of hers certainly provide support for trait vulnerabilities contributing to substance use. She'd likely argue its an interaction of traits, experiences/environment and a multitude of other factors. She's not one for oversimplifications and in this field - picking "one" theory to hang your hat on is almost always going to be an oversimplification.
 
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@Ollie123

Either the hypothesis is supported or we have to accept the null hypothesis.

Redefining the hypothesis, redefining the constructs, or adding it a ton of mediator variables after we find that the hypothesis is not supported is the intellectual equivalent of a child saying, "what I really meant was..." after being caught in a lie.
 
@Ollie123

Either the hypothesis is supported or we have to accept the null hypothesis.

Redefining the hypothesis, redefining the constructs, or adding it a ton of mediator variables after we find that the hypothesis is not supported is the intellectual equivalent of a child saying, "what I really meant was..." after being caught in a lie.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. I'd argue the process you describe is actually the very bedrock of the scientific method. Of course, there is a right way and wrong way to make those modifications.
 
We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. I'd argue the process you describe is actually the very bedrock of the scientific method. Of course, there is a right way and wrong way to make those modifications.

I'd argue that a theory can be revised, or a new hypothesis can be put forth. Last I heard, falsifiablity of a hypothesis remains a pretty big part of science.
 
I'd argue that a theory can be revised, or a new hypothesis can be put forth. Last I heard, falsifiablity of a hypothesis remains a pretty big part of science.
Precisely. I'm not sure we're really in disagreement on this matter. If you're referencing "The self-medication hypothesis as laid forth by Khantzian has not received sufficient support to warrant rejection" than I would absolutely agree with that. Expanding that to the broader construct of self-medication and the myriad theories that have spun off from that work is a different matter. Frankly, in the original papers it probably should have been called a theory rather than a hypothesis anyways, but that ship sailed long ago. Whether we accept the null depends on the specifics for any given hypothesis and at this point there are thousands of hypotheses in the literature that do or do not provide support for self-medication depending on how it is operationalized in the study. Theories involving the concept of self-medication continue to be modified and evolve.
 
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New member here. This thread (the C&P part) came up in response to a search query on Google about psych C&P exams. OMG I can't believe I had never stumbled across this forum before! Great stuff.

I did C&P exams full-time for several years and have studied the area in depth. Your insights and recommendations regarding contract C&P exams are spot on IMHO. I know a good number of combat vets who think the VA has created a monster, which is going to hurt truly suffering vets down the road. (As some of you said.)

Anyway, just wanted to say hello and how impressed I am with the knowledge and experience y'all demonstrate.
 
It's bad patient care and a bad deal for the psychologist. The amount of time you are given is next to nothing and you have to be super efficient w your summary. I won't call it a report bc it is severely lacking (at least the ones I've reviewed) and the contractors seem to hire anyone who is willing. I've gotten multiple emails/msgs for similar gigs.

These make the SSDI evals look like a payday. These contracts are bad for the field too. It's worse than a rubber stamp bc it dumbs down an evaluation that deserves more than a passing glance. Ethically it's very questionable...at least to me.

Now that this thread has been resurrected and I'm seeing it for the first time, I'm curious. If it's pay per hour worked rather than per C&P, wouldn't that reduce some of the ethical concerns of bad patient care? A former supervisor did C&P's at a VA and only saw those folks once for 1-2 hours, wrote his report, and never saw them again...how is that so different than seeing a psychologist for the same time outside the VA with the same VA training paid not by volume but by the hour?
 
Now that this thread has been resurrected and I'm seeing it for the first time, I'm curious. If it's pay per hour worked rather than per C&P, wouldn't that reduce some of the ethical concerns of bad patient care? A former supervisor did C&P's at a VA and only saw those folks once for 1-2 hours, wrote his report, and never saw them again...how is that so different than seeing a psychologist for the same time outside the VA with the same VA training paid not by volume but by the hour?

Contractors are Paid per exam. There is incentive to "burn and churn."

Also, VA psychologists are properly trained to conduct forensic clinical examinations. That's how/why they get hired. The contractors, from everything I've seen, are obviously not.
 
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Contractors are Paid per exam. There is incentive to "burn and churn."

Same is true for contract work for SSI evaluations. And through some twisted logic this is supposed to save the government money.
 
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Same is true for contract work for SSI evaluations. And through some twisted logic this is supposed to save the government money.

There is no money saving here. These reports are usually rubber stamps, alleging "catastrophic" physical or mental injury in situations where it is highly unlikely. I'm looking at you mTBI, or the "signature" wound of the recent wars. Abuse and/or fraud is pretty bad in this system and these incompetent contractors are making it so much worse.
 
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There is no money saving here. These reports are usually rubber stamps, alleging "catastrophic" physical or mental injury in situations where it is highly unlikely. I'm looking at you mTBI, or the "signature" wound of the recent wars. Abuse and/or fraud is pretty bad in this system and these incompetent contractors are making it so much worse.

Yes -- hence my words "twisted logic." It's the very definition of "penny wise and pound foolish."
 
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I don't see psychologists doing this work as inherently unethical, it's more how it is practiced. If they do shoddy work, sure, that's on them, but if they practice competently and thoroughly assess, I don't see the problem as long as they receive adequate training.
 
I don't see psychologists doing this work as inherently unethical, it's more how it is practiced. If they do shoddy work, sure, that's on them, but if they practice competently and thoroughly assess, I don't see the problem as long as they receive adequate training.

And this is where the problem lies.
 
I don't see psychologists doing this work as inherently unethical, it's more how it is practiced. If they do shoddy work, sure, that's on them, but if they practice competently and thoroughly assess, I don't see the problem as long as they receive adequate training.

Yep.

"The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity."
-W.B. Yeats

I find that in many clinical assessment scenarios that are extremely complex, nuanced, and specific etiology is especially hard to nail down...Yeats' words ring true.
 
None of that matters if the purpose of the system has nothing to do with disability.

You're right. It ought to...but it doesn't. And I think that one of the key reasons it doesn't is that one of the actual important stakeholders (the taxpayer, who is funding everything) has no real representation at any stage of the process.

So, the system is set up to reward the 'stampers' who render ridiculously shoddy professional opinions that would have gotten them kicked out of first year graduate school. It's completely one-sided. But it's even worse than that. Read 100 articles in the lay press regarding the disability process, and 95 or more of them present the picture that it's a 'one-sided' affair in the other direction (that is, it's unnecessarily difficult for the truly disabled to get disability or service-connection). 'Double-plus' good.
 
You're right. It ought to...but it doesn't. And I think that one of the key reasons it doesn't is that one of the actual important stakeholders (the taxpayer, who is funding everything) has no real representation at any stage of the process.

So, the system is set up to reward the 'stampers' who render ridiculously shoddy professional opinions that would have gotten them kicked out of first year graduate school. It's completely one-sided. But it's even worse than that. Read 100 articles in the lay press regarding the disability process, and 95 or more of them present the picture that it's a 'one-sided' affair in the other direction (that is, it's unnecessarily difficult for the truly disabled to get disability or service-connection). 'Double-plus' good.

I think he may have been referring more to the notion that the whole thing make little sense in terms of "disability", at least in terms of how the rest of the professional world views it.

I view it more along the lines of apology money. "We are sorry you have mild/moderate/severe PTSD currently, here is some money (generally for the rest of your life)." Anyone has spent time in the VA can tell quite quickly that these patients are not disabled from working because of the psychiatric diagnosis.. Many have ****ed up/dysfunctional lives, but that not the same thing.
 
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@Fan_of_Meehl

If a group of people come together to create a system or structure, the result is a reflection of the combined psychological processes that is mediated by language. A system or structure can label itself anything. That does not mean that the label is accurate. Sometimes there are substantial differences between what the system calls itself and what it does. But what it does and why it calls itself something tells you a great deal.

That some disability systems use the inquisitorial system rather than the common law adversarial system by which our legal system is based is a feature, not a flaw. And not an insignificant one. Same for the departure of using the scientific literature. Same for why the ratings systems used differ than those created by the AMA. Etc, etc, etc.

If there is a function to such behavior, what is it, what are the conceivable long term effects, and cui bono?

I can PM you some ideas about this. But nothing is going to change it.
 
@Fan_of_Meehl

If a group of people come together to create a system or structure, the result is a reflection of the combined psychological processes that is mediated by language. A system or structure can label itself anything. That does not mean that the label is accurate. Sometimes there are substantial differences between what the system calls itself and what it does. But what it does and why it calls itself something tells you a great deal.

That some disability systems use the inquisitorial system rather than the common law adversarial system by which our legal system is based is a feature, not a flaw. And not an insignificant one. Same for the departure of using the scientific literature. Same for why the ratings systems used differ than those created by the AMA. Etc, etc, etc.

If there is a function to such behavior, what is it, what are the conceivable long term effects, and cui bono?

I can PM you some ideas about this. But nothing is going to change it.

I guess I was just expressing my opinion that such a 'feature' might not be a good thing in the long term. Time will tell.
 
If you can do a diagnostic interview, record review, and report write up in 90 minutes, you are a better man than I. And I would wonder where testing is crammed in there, or how the lack of said testing is rationalized to be in accordance with Apa forensic guidelines.

IMO, the benefit of forensic work is that you are paid for all services including reading records, reading the research, etc.

When I have come across c&p exams, by physicians and psychologists; everyone is basically doing crappy work. No one uses the gudesljnes for causation. Everyone uses a bunch of stupid clinical myths that are not supported by empirical literature (e.g., the self medication hypothesis). No one appreciates the literature that indicates that the type of payment used by disability systems has been shown to increase health adverse behaviors and decrease life expectancy.

This is a late question, but can you elaborate on the literature that you mentioned in that last sentence?
 
Look what I got in my linked-in account today. It is definitely not something I want to get involved in for a number of reasons. Just wondering what others think about this. We are having a meeting tomorrow in our department talking about various referrals for evals since I have been saying no to them and others in my department think I am being too rigid.

Good morning, I am Travis Turner with Veterans Evaluation Services and we are in need of help with local Military Veterans in your area. We need quality, licensed Psychologists to perform 1-time compensation and pension exams on these Veterans in which we pay for. Rates are $200-$240.

Thanks.

Travis Turner
Provider recruiter at Veterans Evaluation Services

Houston, Texas Area​


Sorry, but I don't think you have the slightest idea how rigorous and well constructed these exams really are. No, they are not a complete assessment, but for the purposes they are used, they don't need to be. VES is a very reputable company, as are all of the companies that provide C&P exams of the VA.
 
I'd encourage anyone seeing suds to read the history of the self medication hypothesis and ask, "if this is a hypothesis, do we accept the null hypothesis?" And "if it is not a hypothesis, then does this clinical idea help with treatment? How does this idea mesh with FDA pharmacological interventions for substance abuse? How does this idea mesh with the European psychotherapy models.

Sorry to have missed most of this conversation, given its a huge area of interest for me. Ironically, was overseas chairing a symposium peripherally related to this exact topic. Random series of thoughts:

Given I missed this thread the first time around (sorry for again briefly derailing it, btw), I was wondering if @Ollie123, @PSYDR, or anyone else could recommend anything for me to add to a reading list in terms of review articles, book chapters, etc. related to etiology and treatment of substance use disorders in general but also specifically related to opioid use disorder. It is a relatively new area of interest to me and I'm hoping to catch up some while I have a bit more time this summer.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions. Happy to start a new thread if that would be preferred, but just thought it made sense to stick it here considering the interestingly debated topics from 2017 in this thread about self-medication and the state of the literature.
 
Sorry, but I don't think you have the slightest idea how rigorous and well constructed these exams really are. No, they are not a complete assessment, but for the purposes they are used, they don't need to be. VES is a very reputable company, as are all of the companies that provide C&P exams of the VA.

If you poll providers in the VA who have worked with patients and have reviewed these exams, I think you'll get a different opinion than how "rigorous and well constructed" these things are. Most of these are just rubber-stamped pieces of garbage.
 
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Sorry, but I don't think you have the slightest idea how rigorous and well constructed these exams really are. No, they are not a complete assessment, but for the purposes they are used, they don't need to be. VES is a very reputable company, as are all of the companies that provide C&P exams of the VA.

No they aren't. Dont you have the interwebs where you are?
 
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I've seen some pretty baffling decisions from C&Ps conducted by this group, tbh.
 
Sorry, but I don't think you have the slightest idea how rigorous and well constructed these exams really are. No, they are not a complete assessment, but for the purposes they are used, they don't need to be. VES is a very reputable company, as are all of the companies that provide C&P exams of the VA.
Your response to me doesn't even make sense. I never commented on the rigorousness or construction of the exams. Why would I comment on that when I have never seen them? I guess you are right that I don't know about them which is why I framed my post as a question. Also, I was thinking more about the compensation than the quality of the evaluation measure so if you were just trying to read into what I was asking, you missed it.
 
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If anyone wants to be amused, google VES and check out their glassdoor reviews. So much fail, apparently.

EDIT: having dealt with similar companies in other areas of the field, they will always cater to the the least common denominator. The purpose of said company is to scale their services and quickly. This usually leads to any warm body with a license being hired at not the greatest pay. Great if you are in need of cash and it will continue to ensure that the for-profit school grads have some work, but bad for quality generally.
 
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I also had an interaction with a contract C&P examiner who saw one of my patients that resulted in my wondering if it was this person's first day working as a psychologist or something. I don't want to share details in this case they're reading this thread, but it did not leave me with a great impression.
 
I also had an interaction with a contract C&P examiner who saw one of my patients that resulted in my wondering if it was this person's first day working as a psychologist or something. I don't want to share details in this case they're reading this thread, but it did not leave me with a great impression.

awe. just a smidge?
 
If you poll providers in the VA who have worked with patients and have reviewed these exams, I think you'll get a different opinion than how "rigorous and well constructed" these things are. Most of these are just rubber-stamped pieces of garbage.

Yes. I have been unimpressed by the quality of these exams more often than not. There was a running joke in my old VA about one of the providers regularly doing these for the patients I saw - it was that cringe-worthy.
 
I also had an interaction with a contract C&P examiner who saw one of my patients that resulted in my wondering if it was this person's first day working as a psychologist or something. I don't want to share details in this case they're reading this thread, but it did not leave me with a great impression.

People who do poor work at the professional level deserve public ridicule.
 
People who do poor work at the professional level deserve public ridicule.

Ah, fine. Basically, an independent C&P examiner saw my patient and asked me to hospitalize the patient for them. I refused on the advice of my program supervisor.
 
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