COA >300k, prior student loan debt...

[Sthpawslugger]

As a late 30's matriculant at a D.O. school this fall, I've been thinking more and more about the numbers. Despite maintaining a high credit score and paying all bills on time for several years, I can't say I've been the smartest when borrowing student loans. Between UG, Grad and pre-med courses, I've accumulated just over 100k. My first career offered enough to pay the bills, so paying out-of-pocket was never an option. Once I enter residency, at the age of 41, I'll be 400k and counting in debt(projected to be up to 600k by end of residency with interest adding up). I'll be married 4 years by then and likely with a child. As a non-traditional student in late 30s and 40s taking on a massive debt such as this or near it (hopefully there aren't many of you), how has this affected your decision on which path of medicine to take, considering we will have less time to pay it off than our traditional colleagues? I enjoy working and could realistically see myself practicing 25 to 30 years, but I worry about net earnings after taxes, after malpractice insurance, health insurance, overhead costs, and of course student loans. I've also yet to see any financial guidance/blogs/etc online for the non-traditional medical student if anyone has some insight into a good page to read. Thank you.

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[Sthpawslugger]

I managed to discover the finances forum... after reading a thread or two, my question might fare better there. Mind moving my post there, Moderator?

 

[fahimaz7]

There are contracts for rural places that help. Also, don't go into a field that pays poorly...

 

[Sthpawslugger]

There are contracts for rural places that help. Also, don't go into a field that pays poorly...

Saw the contractual obligations...they don't allow a fellowship such as sports medicine. Otherwise, PC SM would be of interest. Aren't there not athletes or MSK injuries in rural areas? I digress...

 

[fahimaz7]

PC SM pays poorly. Ortho SM pays well

 

[Sthpawslugger]

PC SM pays poorly. Ortho SM pays well

I understand that. I'd like to hear how people have managed repaying student loans once becoming a practicing physician age 45 and up, while running a practice, putting away money for retirement, kid's tuition, etc.

 

[fahimaz7]

I understand that. I'd like to hear how people have managed repaying student loans once becoming a practicing physician age 45 and up, while running a practice, putting away money for retirement, kid's tuition, etc.

Well, say you go into anesthesia and make 400k. You put 10k/mo on loans, 5k on retirement, and 10k to live on. Net take home is likely 25k or so. You likely get a fat match on your 401k as well. We get 13% in my group. easy to put away 53k in a 401k, backdoor Roth, and still have wiggle room for a taxable account.

 

[NYCNative]

I think the bottom line is that this is what plans like REPAYE are for. In your situation, you will probably be better off accepting 10% of your salary as a tax to have the career that you want, rather than focusing on paying off the $600k debt. I'm sorry for your situation.

 

[Sthpawslugger]

I think the bottom line is that this is what plans like REPAYE are for. In your situation, you will probably be better off accepting 10% of your salary as a tax to have the career that you want, rather than focusing on paying off the $600k debt. I'm sorry for your situation.

Thank you. I'll look into it. And no need to be sorry about my situation. I did it to myself. Will definitely caution others in the future to not make the mistakes I made with taking out student loans.

 

[PistolPete]

You will have to be Ok with living like a resident for 5-6 years AFTER residency (so until about age 50) all the while paying off your loans aggressively. So on a 400k salary, living off of 50-60k. Are you ok with that? If you are, go do it. If not, medicine may not be a good idea.

 

[Sthpawslugger]

You will have to be Ok with living like a resident for 5-6 years AFTER residency (so until about age 50) all the while paying off your loans aggressively. So on a 400k salary, living off of 50-60k. Are you ok with that? If you are, go do it. If not, medicine may not be a good idea.

I can do it. Absolutely. My fiancée, who has always been frugal, loves shopping at thrift stores, often finding 99 cent dresses that look just as good as you'd find brand new for $50. I don't need the latest Corvette(nothing wrong with those who do, although I'd prefer to restore a GTO Judge or Chevelle one day...), and we are content with living in ~ 2000 sq ft home. I'm guessing based on your aggressive model of repayment w/400k salary that unless I commit to serving in a rural area or some similar "scholarship," lower-paying specialities, are pretty much out of the question eh? On a related note, I have considered the military route, but should I leave after fulfilling my obligation, I question whether or not a practice will hire an ortho surgeon who is 53-55 y/o or from any speciality for that matter.

 

[mvenus929]

I can do it. Absolutely. My fiancée, who has always been frugal, loves shopping at thrift stores, often finding 99 cent dresses that look just as good as you'd find brand new for $50. I don't need the latest Corvette(nothing wrong with those who do, although I'd prefer to restore a GTO Judge or Chevelle one day...), and we are content with living in ~ 2000 sq ft home. I'm guessing based on your aggressive model of repayment w/400k salary that unless I commit to serving in a rural area or some similar "scholarship," lower-paying specialities, are pretty much out of the question eh? On a related note, I have considered the military route, but should I leave after fulfilling my obligation, I question whether or not a practice will hire an ortho surgeon who is 53-55 y/o or from any speciality for that matter.

So, I just ran numbers for you. For a 400K job in Virginia, filing married, and putting away $1500 per month for your 401K (which gives you $18,000 per year... I don't know enough about retirement plans to think about how to contribute pre-tax beyond that, since I've not yet had that amount to put into retirement), gives you $19286.88 in take home pay each month (assuming no deductions, which you would definitely have at that point given that you'll have a child).

As a resident in an urban area, paying more than I need to for my housing and eating out a fair amount, I live on about $2500 each month (out of my $3400 paycheck, roughly $500 goes towards loans, voluntarily, and between $400-500 goes to savings). I imagine the costs would be slightly higher for you, given that you'll be more than one person, and you might want some nice things when you become an attending. So, we'll give you $5000 to live on. Plus $900 into Roth IRAs for you and your wife.

That leaves you a little more than $13000 each month. Or $156,000 per year.

Now, you'll make 400K by being an orthopedic surgeon, which is a 5 year residency. According to Student Loan Calculator - Bankrate.com, your monthly interest if your principal is $450K is $2550. I don't know what the breakdown of your loans is, so it's hard for me to estimate the total balance when you're done with med school. So, at the end of residency, your loans will be approximately $603K. This does not account for any payments made during residency, or the interest benefit if you enter REPAYE.

The 10 year standard repayment for that loan (at 6.8% interest) is $6940. Which means on a salary of $400K, you could pay it off in 4.5 years. Or you could do it in 10 and spend the other $6000 on school funds for kids or whatever.

Let's say you want to be a pediatrician like me, and make $200K. Less compensation, but also less time in residency. At the end of your residency, your loans will be approximately $541,800. Standard repayment would be $6240. Which means with the same 401K contribution (but not Roth IRA), you would be living on $3860 per month. Most certainly living like a resident, and it would take the full 10 years to pay it. Of course, with REPAYE, you won't pay more than 10% of your discretionary income, so your loan payments would not be that high, but it would take you longer to pay them off. But you could pay off more than they require so you don't get hit with the tax bomb at the end of 20 years.

Two extremes of the spectrum, but it gives you an idea what you can and cannot do. And YMMV depending on your interest rates and your payments during residency. (You can play around with some of those assumptions with the Federal Student Loans website).

 

[PistolPete]

I can do it. Absolutely. My fiancée, who has always been frugal, loves shopping at thrift stores, often finding 99 cent dresses that look just as good as you'd find brand new for $50. I don't need the latest Corvette(nothing wrong with those who do, although I'd prefer to restore a GTO Judge or Chevelle one day...), and we are content with living in ~ 2000 sq ft home. I'm guessing based on your aggressive model of repayment w/400k salary that unless I commit to serving in a rural area or some similar "scholarship," lower-paying specialities, are pretty much out of the question eh? On a related note, I have considered the military route, but should I leave after fulfilling my obligation, I question whether or not a practice will hire an ortho surgeon who is 53-55 y/o or from any speciality for that matter.

I think lower paying specialties would be out of the question. Of course you can always make huge amount in any field depending on how hard you hustle, but I'm just talking averages. It sounds like you have a good plan and know what to expect moving forward, so if you truly want to do medicine, go for it! Although to be honest, whether or not to do medicine is an entirely different question. I think I would probably recommend PA or NP school to my kids if they wanted to go into medicine, but that is your own personal choice to make. Good luck to you!

 

[Sthpawslugger]

I think lower paying specialties would be out of the question. Of course you can always make huge amount in any field depending on how hard you hustle, but I'm just talking averages. It sounds like you have a good plan and know what to expect moving forward, so if you truly want to do medicine, go for it! Although to be honest, whether or not to do medicine is an entirely different question. I think I would probably recommend PA or NP school to my kids if they wanted to go into medicine, but that is your own personal choice to make. Good luck to you!

I'm accepted into DO and will start this fall. Worked too hard to go a different route. Plus, this is truly what I want to do. Thsnk you for advice and well wishes!

 

[sweetlenovo88]

I'm accepted into DO and will start this fall. Worked too hard to go a different route. Plus, this is truly what I want to do. Thsnk you for advice and well wishes!

Congratulations on the acceptance. At 600k in debt at age 45 when you finish residency, I would strongly consider the military or other programs that would have you graduate debt free. Living like a resident (difficult, you have a family) and a high salary (hopefully!) will have you debt free in 3 years or so after taxes at age 48. Is that a better situation than the military or other programs with their commitments? I am not sure, but I would look into it.

 

[Sthpawslugger]

So, I just ran numbers for you. For a 400K job in Virginia, filing married, and putting away $1500 per month for your 401K (which gives you $18,000 per year... I don't know enough about retirement plans to think about how to contribute pre-tax beyond that, since I've not yet had that amount to put into retirement), gives you $19286.88 in take home pay each month (assuming no deductions, which you would definitely have at that point given that you'll have a child).

As a resident in an urban area, paying more than I need to for my housing and eating out a fair amount, I live on about $2500 each month (out of my $3400 paycheck, roughly $500 goes towards loans, voluntarily, and between $400-500 goes to savings). I imagine the costs would be slightly higher for you, given that you'll be more than one person, and you might want some nice things when you become an attending. So, we'll give you $5000 to live on. Plus $900 into Roth IRAs for you and your wife.

That leaves you a little more than $13000 each month. Or $156,000 per year.

Now, you'll make 400K by being an orthopedic surgeon, which is a 5 year residency. According to Student Loan Calculator - Bankrate.com, your monthly interest if your principal is $450K is $2550. I don't know what the breakdown of your loans is, so it's hard for me to estimate the total balance when you're done with med school. So, at the end of residency, your loans will be approximately $603K. This does not account for any payments made during residency, or the interest benefit if you enter REPAYE.

The 10 year standard repayment for that loan (at 6.8% interest) is $6940. Which means on a salary of $400K, you could pay it off in 4.5 years. Or you could do it in 10 and spend the other $6000 on school funds for kids or whatever.

Let's say you want to be a pediatrician like me, and make $200K. Less compensation, but also less time in residency. At the end of your residency, your loans will be approximately $541,800. Standard repayment would be $6240. Which means with the same 401K contribution (but not Roth IRA), you would be living on $3860 per month. Most certainly living like a resident, and it would take the full 10 years to pay it. Of course, with REPAYE, you won't pay more than 10% of your discretionary income, so your loan payments would not be that high, but it would take you longer to pay them off. But you could pay off more than they require so you don't get hit with the tax bomb at the end of 20 years.

Two extremes of the spectrum, but it gives you an idea what you can and cannot do. And YMMV depending on your interest rates and your payments during residency. (You can play around with some of those assumptions with the Federal Student Loans website).

THIS. I'm mathematically inclined, yet not knowledgeable when it comes to business and financial discussions, so this is greatly appreciated. Too bad there isn't a 4-week crash course in business, finances and the like for medical students along the way. Distinguished lecturers coming to speak if anything a few times. Would be helpful to know more about the numbers on the front end instead the back end or have an "oh s***" moment when in practice. Anyhow.

I just had a chat with an older ER physican(I think he was primary care but grandfathered in?) who brought up the suggestion of moonlighting in an Level II ER while a primary care physician. Having been employed here 10 years this summer(a southern level II but state-designated Level I), I wouldn't be opposed to doing that 2 or 3 times per month with all of that income going towards my loans so I don't have to dip into my FM salary. It's been suggested to me by a friend in residency that due to me having an athletic training background and attending a DO school, it may not be necessary to pursue a SM fellowship. Yet, I think it would only help me from a marketing standpoint when it comes to covering a college team or even high school sports. I suppose rather than commit myself to a scholarship for primary care when ortho surgery is still of strong interest, I should just pick one of the two when it comes time to choose, work hard in practice and be frugal at first.... a side note... too bad there isn't a bridge from IM to ortho during residency, say 1-2 of the first 4 or 5 of the latter? A total knee and hip ortho I work for who is 71 thinks with the various medications, infections, complex medical conditions, etc., of ortho pts having some degree of IM training wouldn't be a bad idea.
Off subject again...lol. thank you very much again for your number-crunching! Hopefully I can learn how to do that along the way

 

[Sthpawslugger]

Congratulations on the acceptance. At 600k in debt at age 45 when you finish residency, I would strongly consider the military or other programs that would have you graduate debt free. Living like a resident (difficult, you have a family) and a high salary (hopefully!) will have you debt free in 3 years or so after taxes at age 48. Is that a better situation than the military or other programs with their commitments? I am not sure, but I would look into it.

Thank you! Yes, it's daunting. I've read as much as possible to learn about the various scholarship/loan programs and thinking living like a resident for the first few years may be the best way to go. A thought I just had... I suppose I could also round pts at a local SNF for side income, too, regardless of FM or ortho. I tend to lose sight of my other options when I see that 600k figure. Lol.

 

[Plastikos]

I'm accepted into DO and will start this fall. Worked too hard to go a different route. Plus, this is truly what I want to do. Thsnk you for advice and well wishes!

Sunk cost fallacy. Doesnt make sense. Dont use this little bit of sunk costs as an excuse to incur a massive amount now. I dont understand why you'd even want to consider such a path. Try to get into a cheaper school, limit loans as much as possible, etc...Obviously you need to do a career that pays something unless you know for sure you'll be healthy and want to work until you're 80, and that your spouse will for sure understand that you make 500k, but has to live until she's 60 like you make 50k. Honestly makes no sense. IF you can live like you make 50k, why not just make 50k with no loans to repay?

 

[fahimaz7]

THIS. I'm mathematically inclined, yet not knowledgeable when it comes to business and financial discussions, so this is greatly appreciated. Too bad there isn't a 4-week crash course in business, finances and the like for medical students along the way. Distinguished lecturers coming to speak if anything a few times. Would be helpful to know more about the numbers on the front end instead the back end or have an "oh s***" moment when in practice. Anyhow.

I just had a chat with an older ER physican(I think he was primary care but grandfathered in?) who brought up the suggestion of moonlighting in an Level II ER while a primary care physician. Having been employed here 10 years this summer(a southern level II but state-designated Level I), I wouldn't be opposed to doing that 2 or 3 times per month with all of that income going towards my loans so I don't have to dip into my FM salary. It's been suggested to me by a friend in residency that due to me having an athletic training background and attending a DO school, it may not be necessary to pursue a SM fellowship. Yet, I think it would only help me from a marketing standpoint when it comes to covering a college team or even high school sports. I suppose rather than commit myself to a scholarship for primary care when ortho surgery is still of strong interest, I should just pick one of the two when it comes time to choose, work hard in practice and be frugal at first.... a side note... too bad there isn't a bridge from IM to ortho during residency, say 1-2 of the first 4 or 5 of the latter? A total knee and hip ortho I work for who is 71 thinks with the various medications, infections, complex medical conditions, etc., of ortho pts having some degree of IM training wouldn't be a bad idea.
Off subject again...lol. thank you very much again for your number-crunching! Hopefully I can learn how to do that along the way

IM is so far away from ortho that it's not even funny. The personalities that pursue these two fields are distinctly different. If you decide to go into medicine you first will need to figure out what field you are going to go into followed by a way to get your loans paid off. In reading your posts I'm not sure you know what you want to do yet, much less what it's going to be like to face that kind of debt/interest.

 

[Sthpawslugger]

Sunk cost fallacy. Doesnt make sense. Dont use this little bit of sunk costs as an excuse to incur a massive amount now. I dont understand why you'd even want to consider such a path. Try to get into a cheaper school, limit loans as much as possible, etc...Obviously you need to do a career that pays something unless you know for sure you'll be healthy and want to work until you're 80, and that your spouse will for sure understand that you make 500k, but has to live until she's 60 like you make 50k. Honestly makes no sense. IF you can live like you make 50k, why not just make 50k with no loans to repay?

For starters, I was not accepted into any MD programs in my state, so cheaper tuition was and is out of the question. I'm looking into all avenues of paying off the medical school debt, hence the purpose of this thread.

 

[Sthpawslugger]

IM is so far away from ortho that it's not even funny. The personalities that pursue these two fields are distinctly different. If you decide to go into medicine you first will need to figure out what field you are going to go into followed by a way to get your loans paid off. In reading your posts I'm not sure you know what you want to do yet, much less what it's going to be like to face that kind of debt/interest.

There is no 'if' as I am going into medicine. Primary care sports medicine or ortho are my two interests. Ortho has been for a long time. Primary care with perhaps more opportunity to educate on nutrition and exercise. I do again appreciate the financial breakdown you provided .

 

[fahimaz7]

There is no 'if' as I am going into medicine. Primary care sports medicine or ortho are my two interests. Ortho has been for a long time. Primary care with perhaps more opportunity to educate on nutrition and exercise. I do again appreciate the financial breakdown you provided .

Again they are distinctly different. Doing a family medicine residency or EM residency into sports medicine is very different than an orthopedic surgery residency. That also assumes that you're near the top of your class with scores that also supports an application into orthopedic surgery. This is coming from an ED attending who never once considered ortho but did consider ENT.

On a side note, I turned down an acceptance to a DO school and waiting another year to get into a MD school. That decision saved me 200k in debt but also cost me 300k in income for that missed year of work.

 

[mvenus929]

THIS. I'm mathematically inclined, yet not knowledgeable when it comes to business and financial discussions, so this is greatly appreciated. Too bad there isn't a 4-week crash course in business, finances and the like for medical students along the way. Distinguished lecturers coming to speak if anything a few times. Would be helpful to know more about the numbers on the front end instead the back end or have an "oh s***" moment when in practice. Anyhow.

I just had a chat with an older ER physican(I think he was primary care but grandfathered in?) who brought up the suggestion of moonlighting in an Level II ER while a primary care physician. Having been employed here 10 years this summer(a southern level II but state-designated Level I), I wouldn't be opposed to doing that 2 or 3 times per month with all of that income going towards my loans so I don't have to dip into my FM salary. It's been suggested to me by a friend in residency that due to me having an athletic training background and attending a DO school, it may not be necessary to pursue a SM fellowship. Yet, I think it would only help me from a marketing standpoint when it comes to covering a college team or even high school sports. I suppose rather than commit myself to a scholarship for primary care when ortho surgery is still of strong interest, I should just pick one of the two when it comes time to choose, work hard in practice and be frugal at first.... a side note... too bad there isn't a bridge from IM to ortho during residency, say 1-2 of the first 4 or 5 of the latter? A total knee and hip ortho I work for who is 71 thinks with the various medications, infections, complex medical conditions, etc., of ortho pts having some degree of IM training wouldn't be a bad idea.
Off subject again...lol. thank you very much again for your number-crunching! Hopefully I can learn how to do that along the way

I quoted most all of the tools you need to figure things out on your own. And note that my interest rates were mostly at 6.8%, but recently they have been lower than that, so you may have less interest.

But really, your primary objective is going to be to take as few loans as possible out. Tuition and fees are non-negotiable, but if your fiancee works, live off her income. Borrow books from the library rather than purchasing them. Request things you need as gifts for the holidays/birthdays. Cook at home, rather than eating out. That can substantially decrease your loan burden, and thus your repayment. Also note that loans start accruing interest from the time of disbursement, so if you don't need money for an expense until later in the year, you can always request an additional loan rather than taking it all up front.

 

[RangerBob]

Saw the contractual obligations...they don't allow a fellowship such as sports medicine. Otherwise, PC SM would be of interest. Aren't there not athletes or MSK injuries in rural areas? I digress...

Why not do PM&R? Most of my colleagues go into outpatient MSK practices, and you'll get plenty of rehab (and medicine) training to cover inpatient SNF's as you mention you might be interested in above. You should only do ortho if you actually want to do surgery. Otherwise it's a waste of time/effort if you just want to do non-operative ortho/MSK (and PM&R would train you better for that). The only non-operative ortho folks I know are essentially retired and don't want to be on the OR anymore at their age.

Outpatient PM&R pays well (to me!), with most starting at around $220-240k. I saw a listing for $290 yesterday. We make a bit more than most FM/IM providers, and roughly the same as psych/neuro.

Sports-trained PM&R physicians can make quite a bit of money if they do a lot of injections, ultrasound, and other procedures like tenotomies/PRP/etc.

One thing to consider is sports physicians often don't get paid to cover games (particularly HS). They cover games more to bring in business.

In case you need any advice on how to determine what specialty would be best if you do decide to go into sports:

Want to operate--> Ortho

Want to be the team physician (treat primary care + sports problems)--> FM + sports fellowship

Want to be the MSK/sports specialist (not operating and not treating primary care issues, but will have better MSK knowledge and be better with bracing, injections, etc.) --> PM&R + sports fellowship.

If you're in a rural area, you probably don't need a sports fellowship, though you won't get much MSK-training in FM residency other than 2-4 months of rheum/sports/electives. Just to contrast that, I did 2 months of sports, and another year of MSK + 4 electives (I chose more inpatient, but could've done all MSK clinics) + 4 months EMG (peripheral nervous system stuff--so still MSK-related and helpful for sports physicians--plus many sports PM&R will still do EMGs).

 

[Sthpawslugger]

Again they are distinctly different. Doing a family medicine residency or EM residency into sports medicine is very different than an orthopedic surgery residency. That also assumes that you're near the top of your class with scores that also supports an application into orthopedic surgery. This is coming from an ED attending who never once considered ortho but did consider ENT.

On a side note, I turned down an acceptance to a DO school and waiting another year to get into a MD school. That decision saved me 200k in debt but also cost me 300k in income for that missed year of work.

I understand, so I'll be sure to spend time with a primary care sports medicine physician to find out if I would be happy doing that.

Congrats on gaining acceptance into an MD school. Grades from early undergrad some 16-18 years didn't help my GPA when applying MD, and I completed a MS in Biology about 2 years ago, so there isn't much else I can do to strengthen my application for acceptance into an MD program.

 

[RangerBob]

Also, regarding loans--as recommended above, borrow the minimum amount possible. Hopefully your SO can contribute a lot so you don't have to borrow to pay rent. Live walking distance to school if you can. Share a car. Cook your own food, etc.

 

[dpmd]

Unfortunately there isn't a magic bullet to paying off student loans regardless of if you are a trad or nontrad. Hopefully you have some retirement savings from your prior career, but if not then your debt load is going to be a bigger problem. You don't mention what your fiance does for a living (and what they plan to do while you are in school and after). That can be the difference in living practically paycheck to paycheck and relying on social security versus being able to retire at a decent age. The programs that reduce debt for those that want to do certain fields are one thing to consider but then you are stuck with those fields or having to pay back money (and the places they want you to go to may not end up being the places you want to go). The IBR with loan forgiveness thing for working at a nonprofit is nice and all (assuming it doesn't go away) but the tradeoff is probably going to be a lower salary. Living like a resident and aggressively paying down your loans is easier said than done (and you will want to do so while still putting money towards retirement). Doing one of the income based repayments on a lower salary may lead to the 20 or 25yr forgiveness which will create a tax headache for you at that time, but I have seen some number crunching that makes it seem like the better plan in certain circumstances (provided you invest the money freed up by not paying more aggressively rather than spending it, but how often do people stick to that). Refinancing for a better rate sounds great but rates are rising so that might not help you out much (and may not be worth giving up the protections of federal loans). Just know that by choosing to go down this path, you will create a point of no return where if you decide you don't want to be a doctor after all or if you are unsuccessful at getting a residency then you probably won't be able to get out of the debt unscathed. Even if you get a high paying job you are going to be a lot worse off than others would be, especially if you then fall into the high consumption lifestyle that so many doctors do (then sit and complain about their lack of wealth when they lease new cars every few years, live in a house with a big mortgage, get a new cellphone each time the upgrade comes out, put their kids in pricey private school, etc). Having a kid will make it harder to get out of that debt, but if you really want kids then you just have to realize that it is going to cost you years of loan repayment and decreased retirement money. Getting a divorce would be disaster especially if they decide that your loans stay with you but your income should be split (wouldn't put it past a judge really). Your best strategy will be to see every dollar you take out in loans and every dollar you spend while still in debt as the enemy keeping you from your goal of financial freedom. Then doing things like getting books at the library instead of buying them or eloping instead of having a big wedding becomes easier to do. Only works if your fiance is on board with the plan.