Chiropractic Enters VA Hospitals

[BackTalk]

why do DC's get all up in arms about PT's using manual therapy?

It's has to do with "turf" and that's the bottom line.

Especially regarding law suitd like the one Arkansas. They sued a physical therapist for performing spinal mobilizations.

Right or wrong, the guy was doing more than just mobilizations. Apparently it is illegal for PT to perform spinal manipulation in Arkansas and this guy got caught. Did you read the transcript?

Chiropractic is a male dominate profession. We are very defensive to begin with and aggressively protect our best interests. PT on the other hand is a female dominate profession and is much less aggressive.

Should PT's file a law suit every time a chiropractor gives out exercises?

Nope. It's within our scope of practice to recommend exercises.

And there is a VERY BIG difference between chiropractors and physical therapists.

I agree.

Exactly, semantics for chiropractors who don't enjoy the excellent reputation that we PTs have (general overarching statement and I do recognize that some DCs out there are excellent and have excellent reputations)

Huh?

I will agree that there are good DC's out there, but I think the main problem is that there is a large majority that overstep their bounds. When 1-2/10 in a profession are good....that sounds kinda shady to me. You don't hear too much about how many unethical/over billing PT's there are, even though there are a few of them out there.

Ever heard of HealthSouth?? What do you mean by "chiropractors overstepping their bounds"? I disagree that 1-2/10 are bad. Where did you read that? I'm sorry but I don't charge $250 dollars a visit like the PT department at the local hospital does. Come on, who are you trying to fool?

If they can have direct access why can't we?

You should be asking "a massage therapist has direct access with 6 months of education, and why don't we"?? Then again, if you had direct access, would it make a difference? I mean almost all insurance requires a referral to PT for reimbursement. If you can't get paid, then what's the point? Especially when you will never be able to get people to pay cash at $100-$250 a visit.

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[MSHARO]

Backtalk,

So if rehab is in your scope of practice of chiropractors why is manual therapy not in ours? And who are you to say? I personally don't care whose scope it falls under, I don't use manual techniques very much nor do I desire to. But who says if a physical therapist, trained in manual therapy techniques, shouldn't be able to perform them, even if something accidentally produces an audible "pop". Again, in that case it all comes down to money and who has a stronger lobby in that particular state. It just happens that Arkansas it wasn't very stong for PT's.

But everytime a chiropractor advertises that they offer physical therapy it makes me sick. So I guess that I would disagree that it is in the scope of practice for DC's. Do not use the argument that DC's have more training in manual techniques and that is why they should be able to perform them and not PT's. If manual therapy is not in our scope, rehab and exercises are certainly not in yours. You certainly do not have the level of training we do in exercise. Unless these chiropractic clinics are employing a PT in their clinic, advertising that they offer "physical therapy" is a crock of $h!t. That is why in several states it is illegal for them to advertise this.

And I agree about Healthsouth, they were crooked, and that is why they got busted for it. But it really didn't come down to the therapists themselves, it had more to do with the corporate structrure and accouting practices if I have heard correctly (ie. Enron). But how often do you really hear people saying that the physical therapy profession is a scam of a bogus profession. Not too often. That is what I think was meant about our "great reputation." Of course there are going to be people that are going to try and take advantage of the system, it is like that in EVERY profession. Medicine, physical therapy and chiropractic. You just certainly don't hear about it as much in PT as you do in the chiropractic profession. You even agreed in a previous thread that up to 80% are quacks. To quote you in a previous discussion:

"Effective" DC's know who they are. In my experience it is about 20% of the profession. An effective DC can easily point to the clinical rationale for patient treatment through clinical reasoning and scientific study. They also defend themselves without becoming militant or attacking medicine. Effective DC's wish to work in conjunction with medical providers because they know they are effective and thier patient management speaks for itself. The same cannot be said of the 80% of quacks.

I agree 100%!"

As for the billing prices, those are usually a little off from what is actually reimbursed. At least in the outpatient setting where I have worked, it is all about playing the game. It may be billed as $250, but only $125 gets paid for. And that would be for a full hour of treatment. And even that is pretty high. It is all about playing the game with the insurance companies and the contracts that you have with them. Just curious...how much would you bill for one full hour of hands on treatment?

 

[delicatefade]

No offense, but you shouldn't have worked in that setting then. I worked outpatient ortho and haven't had to get someone out of bed in a few years. I just hope that is not the main reason that you are getting out of physical therapy, because there are MANY settings where your aren't just pulling people in and out of bed. (Outpatient ortho/neuro, peds, etc.) Work acute care, of course you are going to be doing that, but it comes with the territory. I never liked that, so I didn't take a job in that setting. Simple enough. But that had absolutely nothing to do with why I am going back to medical school.

I have worked in every setting (except peds), although I mostly do rehab. And I have had gripes with all of them. That is why I am leaving PT.

 

[BackTalk]

So if rehab is in your scope of practice of chiropractors why is manual therapy not in ours?

I don't know. Maybe you should ask the APTA.

And who are you to say? I personally don't care whose scope it falls under, I don't use manual techniques very much nor do I desire to. But who says if a physical therapist, trained in manual therapy techniques, shouldn't be able to perform them, even if something accidentally produces an audible "pop". Again, in that case it all comes down to money and who has a stronger lobby in that particular state. It just happens that Arkansas it wasn't very stong for PT's.

I agree they should be allowed to practice manual therapy when properly trained. Did you read the transcript? He was doing manipulations and got busted. It's illegal in Arkansas. Just like its Illegal for a chiropractor (or anyone other than a physical therapist) to advertise they perform physical therapy. There are states that have busted chiropractors for advertising physical therapy. I think its stupid as physical therapy is a generic term.

But everytime a chiropractor advertises that they offer physical therapy it makes me sick.

Why is that?

So I guess that I would disagree that it is in the scope of practice for DC's. Do not use the argument that DC's have more training in manual techniques and that is why they should be able to perform them and not PT's.

First off there are many forms of physical therapy that are taught in chiropractic school. We are trained in these techniques and legally can perform physical therapy. Manual therapy is just one form of physical therapy. Yes DC's have more training in manual therapy than ANYONE so I will mention it.

If manual therapy is not in our scope, rehab and exercises are certainly not in yours.

Scope of practice is defined by the state, not the schools. Who said manual therapy was not in your scope of practice? I never said that. I believe many states exclude physical therapists from performing manipulation but not all manual therapy.

You certainly do not have the level of training we do in exercise.

I agree I probably don't have the level of training in exercise as you do. I do have enough education in that area to safely recommend and show patients how to do the necessary exercises to help their condition. Do you on the other hand have a safe level of training to manipulate someone's neck? I don't think so.

Unless these chiropractic clinics are employing a PT in their clinic, advertising that they offer "physical therapy" is a crock of $h!t.

What would you like us to advertise it as? How about physical rehab or physiotherapeutic's? Again, physical therapy is a generic term. You may own the term or name but you don't own the treatment.

That is why in several states it is illegal for them to advertise this.

The only reason it is illegal for a chiropractor or ANYONE ELSE to advertise "physical therapy" is because the term is protected by most state physical therapy practice acts. The same can be said for "chiropractic". Its not because it is a "crock of ****' that chiropractors perform these services.

And I agree about Healthsouth, they were crooked, and that is why they got busted for it. But it really didn't come down to the therapists themselves, it had more to do with the corporate structrure and accouting practices if I have heard correctly (ie. Enron). But how often do you really hear people saying that the physical therapy profession is a scam of a bogus profession. Not too often. That is what I think was meant about our "great reputation." Of course there are going to be people that are going to try and take advantage of the system, it is like that in EVERY profession. Medicine, physical therapy and chiropractic. You just certainly don't hear about it as much in PT as you do in the chiropractic profession. You even agreed in a previous thread that up to 80% are quacks. To quote you in a previous discussion:

The reason you don't see it as much is because most physical therapists are not in private practice for themselves. Most work for hospitals or clinics owned by people other than physical therapists. You are right that I agreed 100% with what that guy said. Looking back on it now I was realize I was wrong to completely agree with him 100%. Most of what he said is true except that 80% of the profession are quacks. I no longer believe that is the case.

 

[aphistis]

Backtalk,

So if rehab is in your scope of practice of chiropractors why is manual therapy not in ours? And who are you to say? I personally don't care whose scope it falls under, I don't use manual techniques very much nor do I desire to. But who says if a physical therapist, trained in manual therapy techniques, shouldn't be able to perform them, even if something accidentally produces an audible "pop". Again, in that case it all comes down to money and who has a stronger lobby in that particular state. It just happens that Arkansas it wasn't very stong for PT's.

But everytime a chiropractor advertises that they offer physical therapy it makes me sick. So I guess that I would disagree that it is in the scope of practice for DC's. Do not use the argument that DC's have more training in manual techniques and that is why they should be able to perform them and not PT's. If manual therapy is not in our scope, rehab and exercises are certainly not in yours. You certainly do not have the level of training we do in exercise. Unless these chiropractic clinics are employing a PT in their clinic, advertising that they offer "physical therapy" is a crock of $h!t. That is why in several states it is illegal for them to advertise this.

And I agree about Healthsouth, they were crooked, and that is why they got busted for it. But it really didn't come down to the therapists themselves, it had more to do with the corporate structrure and accouting practices if I have heard correctly (ie. Enron). But how often do you really hear people saying that the physical therapy profession is a scam of a bogus profession. Not too often. That is what I think was meant about our "great reputation." Of course there are going to be people that are going to try and take advantage of the system, it is like that in EVERY profession. Medicine, physical therapy and chiropractic. You just certainly don't hear about it as much in PT as you do in the chiropractic profession. You even agreed in a previous thread that up to 80% are quacks. To quote you in a previous discussion:

"Effective" DC's know who they are. In my experience it is about 20% of the profession. An effective DC can easily point to the clinical rationale for patient treatment through clinical reasoning and scientific study. They also defend themselves without becoming militant or attacking medicine. Effective DC's wish to work in conjunction with medical providers because they know they are effective and thier patient management speaks for itself. The same cannot be said of the 80% of quacks.

I agree 100%!"

As for the billing prices, those are usually a little off from what is actually reimbursed. At least in the outpatient setting where I have worked, it is all about playing the game. It may be billed as $250, but only $125 gets paid for. And that would be for a full hour of treatment. And even that is pretty high. It is all about playing the game with the insurance companies and the contracts that you have with them. Just curious...how much would you bill for one full hour of hands on treatment?

Man, I'm embarrassed to have you across the street from me. I don't say this often, but BackTalk is completely dismantling you. Quit while you're behind.

 

[PublicHealth]

So if rehab is in your scope of practice of chiropractors why is manual therapy not in ours?

I don't know. Maybe you should ask the APTA.

And who are you to say? I personally don't care whose scope it falls under, I don't use manual techniques very much nor do I desire to. But who says if a physical therapist, trained in manual therapy techniques, shouldn't be able to perform them, even if something accidentally produces an audible "pop". Again, in that case it all comes down to money and who has a stronger lobby in that particular state. It just happens that Arkansas it wasn't very stong for PT's.

I agree they should be allowed to practice manual therapy when properly trained. Did you read the transcript? He was doing manipulations and got busted. It's illegal in Arkansas. Just like its Illegal for a chiropractor (or anyone other than a physical therapist) to advertise they perform physical therapy. There are states that have busted chiropractors for advertising physical therapy. I think its stupid as physical therapy is a generic term.

But everytime a chiropractor advertises that they offer physical therapy it makes me sick.

Why is that?

So I guess that I would disagree that it is in the scope of practice for DC's. Do not use the argument that DC's have more training in manual techniques and that is why they should be able to perform them and not PT's.

First off there are many forms of physical therapy that are taught in chiropractic school. We are trained in these techniques and legally can perform physical therapy. Manual therapy is just one form of physical therapy. Yes DC's have more training in manual therapy than ANYONE so I will mention it.

If manual therapy is not in our scope, rehab and exercises are certainly not in yours.

Scope of practice is defined by the state, not the schools. Who said manual therapy was not in your scope of practice? I never said that. I believe many states exclude physical therapists from performing manipulation but not all manual therapy.

You certainly do not have the level of training we do in exercise.

I agree I probably don't have the level of training in exercise as you do. I do have enough education in that area to safely recommend and show patients how to do the necessary exercises to help their condition. Do you on the other hand have a safe level of training to manipulate someone's neck? I don't think so.

Unless these chiropractic clinics are employing a PT in their clinic, advertising that they offer "physical therapy" is a crock of $h!t.

What would you like us to advertise it as? How about physical rehab or physiotherapeutic's? Again, physical therapy is a generic term. You may own the term or name but you don't own the treatment.

That is why in several states it is illegal for them to advertise this.

The only reason it is illegal for a chiropractor or ANYONE ELSE to advertise "physical therapy" is because the term is protected by most state physical therapy practice acts. The same can be said for "chiropractic". Its not because it is a "crock of ****' that chiropractors perform these services.

And I agree about Healthsouth, they were crooked, and that is why they got busted for it. But it really didn't come down to the therapists themselves, it had more to do with the corporate structrure and accouting practices if I have heard correctly (ie. Enron). But how often do you really hear people saying that the physical therapy profession is a scam of a bogus profession. Not too often. That is what I think was meant about our "great reputation." Of course there are going to be people that are going to try and take advantage of the system, it is like that in EVERY profession. Medicine, physical therapy and chiropractic. You just certainly don't hear about it as much in PT as you do in the chiropractic profession. You even agreed in a previous thread that up to 80% are quacks. To quote you in a previous discussion:

The reason you don't see it as much is because most physical therapists are not in private practice for themselves. Most work for hospitals or clinics owned by people other than physical therapists. You are right that I agreed 100% with what that guy said. Looking back on it now I was realize I was wrong to completely agree with him 100%. Most of what he said is true except that 80% of the profession are quacks. I no longer believe that is the case.

BackTalk has my back. Thanks bro!

 

[Johnny69]

BackTalk has my back. Thanks bro!

I agree, i definately rate Backtalk, he is clearly a calm, collected individual, whom articulates his words particularly well!

You are definately a shinning light for the chiropractic profession, and reason why, even though i am no longer involved with the profession, i will continue to support it.

Cheers Backtalk!

 

[PublicHealth]

I agree, i definately rate Backtalk, he is clearly a calm, collected individual, whom articulates his words particularly well!

You are definately a shinning light for the chiropractic profession, and reason why, even though i am no longer involved with the profession, i will continue to support it.

Cheers Backtalk!

Right on! BackTalk's knowledge of chiropractic, as well as his practice philosophy should be a model for all future DCs. People like him serve the profession well.

BackTalk,

Have you considered writing an editorial or article describing your practice philosophy for one of the mainstream chiropractic journals, possibly one of the student journals? The profession needs people like you to describe how chiropractors SHOULD be practicing, and ultimately rid chiropractors, chiropractic students, and the general public of the idea that all chiropractors are quacks.

 

[BackTalk]

Thanks for your support! Public, I'm not much of a journalist and hadn't really thought about doing an article on my views of chiropractic. Believe me, my clinic would probably be fire bombed if I wrote an article. I hear that the president of the NACM (National Association or Chiropractic Medicine) http://www.chiromed.org/ gets death threats all the time. I may consider it as many quack jobs write articles on pure quackery and they get published. One thing that may draw quite a bit of interest is someone like you writing an article. That is, someone other than a DC that gives a "public" point of view. Hey, if you really want to see some Looney's check this site out.

http://www.f-a-c-e.com/cgi-local/ubbcgi/Ultimate.cgi

 

[MSHARO]

First off, BackTalk has not always been the most calm and collected individual. He is definately here in the Physical Therapy forum with an agenda. On occassion he has been know to make derogatory comments on various post about physical therapist such as "go back and rub some muscles, etc." So I knew what I was getting into when I posted. I have just held off instigating anything until now. Aphistis, I am truly sorry that you'll be in my back yard as well if you aren't willing to stand up for something that you believe in. Even though I am leaving the physical therapy, I will continue to defend it. How would you like it if he told you to "Go floss some teeth and hand out free toothbrushes? That is all you guys do." I bet that would irritate you a bit. And then what if DC's started trying to take over dentistry procedures like treating cavities or pulling teeth with manipulations...I bet you would be upset not only for your profession but also your patients. I just don't find chiropractic techniques effective or in the best interests of my patients in many cases. Anyways, here is a rebuttal:


And who are you to say? I personally don't care whose scope it falls under, I don't use manual techniques very much nor do I desire to. But who says if a physical therapist, trained in manual therapy techniques, shouldn't be able to perform them, even if something accidentally produces an audible "pop". Again, in that case it all comes down to money and who has a stronger lobby in that particular state. It just happens that Arkansas it wasn't very stong for PT's.

I agree they should be allowed to practice manual therapy when properly trained. Did you read the transcript? He was doing manipulations and got busted. It's illegal in Arkansas. Just like its Illegal for a chiropractor (or anyone other than a physical therapist) to advertise they perform physical therapy. There are states that have busted chiropractors for advertising physical therapy. I think its stupid, as physical therapy is a generic term.

Actually "physical therapy" is not a generic term in most states, it is in our practice act. Can I call manipulations a grade V mobilization and get away with it then? I don't see anything illlegal in out practice act about that? (Actually it depends on the state and the wording in the practice act as the PT in Ark happened to discover.)

So if rehab is in your scope of practice of chiropractors why is manual therapy not in ours?

I don't know. Maybe you should ask the APTA.

Actually it is in our scope of practice, but chiropractors across the country are trying to force us out of it. Like I said, it is all about money and territory, not education or training. There was a bill here in Indiana put up by chiro's trying to eliminate manual therapy from PT's.

But every time a chiropractor advertises that they offer physical therapy it makes me sick.

Why is that?

Because as I stated, it is not a generic term and it cheapens what we do. To have someone untrained in what you do, pretending to know and offer the same services, is equivalent to saying that a massage therapist is providing a chiropractic adjustment and advertising as such. How would you feel about that? Haven't you worked hard for the right to be a chiropractor?

So I guess that I would disagree that it is in the scope of practice for DC's. Do not use the argument that DC's have more training in manual techniques and that is why they should be able to perform them and not PT's.

First off there are many forms of physical therapy that are taught in chiropractic school. We are trained in these techniques and legally can perform physical therapy. Manual therapy is just one form of physical therapy. Yes DC's have more training in manual therapy than ANYONE so I will mention it.

No actually it is illegal in many states for you to perform "physical therapy". You actually missed the point though. If you are (or were) using the argument that PT's should not be able to perform manual therapy, because DC's have more training in it, DC's shouldn't be able to prescribe exercises, because we have more education and training in it. Personally, I don't see really care if you give out exercies, as long as it goes both ways. You give out exercises and I'll perform manual therapy. But don't try to sue me when something "pops".

Unless these chiropractic clinics are employing a PT in their clinic, advertising that they offer "physical therapy" is a crock of $h!t.

What would you like us to advertise it as? How about physical rehab or physiotherapeutic's? Again, physical therapy is a generic term. You may own the term or name but you don't own the treatment.

You can call it anything you want, but then don't lay claim to the word "manipulation" then. If you want that word, we want "physical therapy." It is in our practice act. As you stated previously...it is all semantics.

And I agree about Healthsouth, they were crooked, and that is why they got busted for it. But it really didn't come down to the therapists themselves, it had more to do with the corporate structure and accounting practices if I have heard correctly (ie. Enron). But how often do you really hear people saying that the physical therapy profession is a scam of a bogus profession. Not too often. That is what I think was meant about our "great reputation." Of course there are going to be people that are going to try and take advantage of the system, it is like that in EVERY profession. Medicine, physical therapy and chiropractic. You just certainly don't hear about it as much in PT as you do in the chiropractic profession. You even agreed in a previous thread that up to 80% are quacks. To quote you in a previous discussion:

The reason you don't see it as much is because most physical therapists are not in private practice for themselves. Most work for hospitals or clinics owned by people other than physical therapists. You are right that I agreed 100% with what that guy said. Looking back on it now I was realize I was wrong to completely agree with him 100%. Most of what he said is true except that 80% of the professions are quacks. I no longer believe that is the case.

That's fine, but then don't bring up HealthSouth then. That has nothing to do with the PT's as you implied. It was the upper management and accountants. I was just bringing up the fact (which you have to admit to) that chiropractors have more of a reputation for trying to get money out of people. Whether this is true or not, who knows. But PT's for some reason don't get this reputation.....? Is it just because more work for corporations...maybe...but you still don't hear about many private PT practices getting busted for trying to scam people out of their money....even though I am sure it happens. As I said, there are some bad apples in every profession. Often it is just a few bad ones that happen to show up on Dateline or 60 minutes, but it still tarnishes the profession. I never said ALL DC's do this, I just said you hear about it more with DC's than with PT's. I just thought you agreed with me that 80% of chiro's were quacks.

 

[dpt06eas]

So if rehab is in your scope of practice of chiropractors why is manual therapy not in ours?

I don't know. Maybe you should ask the APTA.

Her point, BackTalk is in the following paragraph she wrote. There are many schools that are heavy in manual techniques. I spent the last two months with a Certified Orthopedic Manual Therapist and learned a lot about that specialty. While I'll admit that I am ignorant to philosophy and scope of DC practice, I will advocate for trained PTs to practice manual therapy without retribution.

And who are you to say? I personally don't care whose scope it falls under, I don't use manual techniques very much nor do I desire to. But who says if a physical therapist, trained in manual therapy techniques, shouldn't be able to perform them, even if something accidentally produces an audible "pop". Again, in that case it all comes down to money and who has a stronger lobby in that particular state. It just happens that Arkansas it wasn't very stong for PT's.

I agree they should be allowed to practice manual therapy when properly trained. Did you read the transcript? He was doing manipulations and got busted. It's illegal in Arkansas. Just like its Illegal for a chiropractor (or anyone other than a physical therapist) to advertise they perform physical therapy. There are states that have busted chiropractors for advertising physical therapy. I think its stupid as physical therapy is a generic term.

I'm sorry that you think the name of hard-working profession is stupid and generic, however it IS our name in the states. The rest of the world knows us as physiotherapists. Personally I would choose to be called a physiotherapist, but we are protected by the practice acts. Kleenex is a pretty generic name too, Puffs got creative...sooooo...find another name for your rehab and get over it.

But everytime a chiropractor advertises that they offer physical therapy it makes me sick.

Why is that?

Because it's not physical therapy - as protected by our practice acts.

So I guess that I would disagree that it is in the scope of practice for DC's. Do not use the argument that DC's have more training in manual techniques and that is why they should be able to perform them and not PT's.

First off there are many forms of physical therapy that are taught in chiropractic school. We are trained in these techniques and legally can perform physical therapy. Manual therapy is just one form of physical therapy. Yes DC's have more training in manual therapy than ANYONE so I will mention it.

I agree.

If manual therapy is not in our scope, rehab and exercises are certainly not in yours.

Scope of practice is defined by the state, not the schools. Who said manual therapy was not in your scope of practice? I never said that. I believe many states exclude physical therapists from performing manipulation but not all manual therapy.

You certainly do not have the level of training we do in exercise.

I agree I probably don't have the level of training in exercise as you do. I do have enough education in that area to safely recommend and show patients how to do the necessary exercises to help their condition. Do you on the other hand have a safe level of training to manipulate someone's neck? I don't think so.

A well trained and educated PT could probably pick out many an error in your "recommended exercises" to help your patients condition. And the last time you were in PT school or attended continuing education for manual therapy in PT was.....when? I'm sorry, I must have missed that, because I'm not sure that you have enough information to judge whether or not I can safely manipulate someones neck. If I am wrong about this, by all means, please keep me abreast of your complete formal education. I am a 1st year PT student and a month ago I was safely manipulating a patients neck under supervision of my CI. Very rarely did we perform any grade 5 manipulations, and the manipulations I was performing were very gentle and specific -- not one patient regressed and not one complained -- I feel very confident that I was safely performing manipulation on the neck. I'll get my lisence in a couple years.

Unless these chiropractic clinics are employing a PT in their clinic, advertising that they offer "physical therapy" is a crock of $h!t.

What would you like us to advertise it as? How about physical rehab or physiotherapeutic's? Again, physical therapy is a generic term. You may own the term or name but you don't own the treatment.

See above. "There are many ways to skin a cat." We just happen to think we're the most effective as far as exercise and rehab go.

That is why in several states it is illegal for them to advertise this.

The only reason it is illegal for a chiropractor or ANYONE ELSE to advertise "physical therapy" is because the term is protected by most state physical therapy practice acts. The same can be said for "chiropractic". Its not because it is a "crock of ****' that chiropractors perform these services.

And I agree about Healthsouth, they were crooked, and that is why they got busted for it. But it really didn't come down to the therapists themselves, it had more to do with the corporate structrure and accouting practices if I have heard correctly (ie. Enron). But how often do you really hear people saying that the physical therapy profession is a scam of a bogus profession. Not too often. That is what I think was meant about our "great reputation." Of course there are going to be people that are going to try and take advantage of the system, it is like that in EVERY profession. Medicine, physical therapy and chiropractic. You just certainly don't hear about it as much in PT as you do in the chiropractic profession. You even agreed in a previous thread that up to 80% are quacks. To quote you in a previous discussion:

The reason you don't see it as much is because most physical therapists are not in private practice for themselves. Most work for hospitals or clinics owned by people other than physical therapists. You are right that I agreed 100% with what that guy said. Looking back on it now I was realize I was wrong to completely agree with him 100%. Most of what he said is true except that 80% of the profession are quacks. I no longer believe that is the case.

Why have your views changed so much in the past few days BackTalk?
And what is the going rate for chiropractic per hour these days?
And again, correct me if I'm wrong as I said previously, but isn't this the STUDENT DOCTOR NETWORK FORUMS? If you are a student BackTalk where are you going to school and for what? If not, why are you in here? Isn't there a warning posted about trolling forums...not that your purpose is to irritate us, but I mean, the DC students are kinda ganging up on the PT students here in the PT/DPT forum. Great conversation though. I mean it. I'd like to know more about the chiropractic profession.
But I would also like responses to the questions MSHARO and I asked.

 

[PublicHealth]

And again, correct me if I'm wrong as I said previously, but isn't this the STUDENT DOCTOR NETWORK FORUMS? If you are a student BackTalk where are you going to school and for what? If not, why are you in here? Isn't there a warning posted about trolling forums...not that your purpose is to irritate us, but I mean, the DC students are kinda ganging up on the PT students here in the PT/DPT forum. Great conversation though. I mean it. I'd like to know more about the chiropractic profession.
But I would also like responses to the questions MSHARO and I asked

I'm sure BackTalk will get to this, but I, for one -- a STUDENT DOCTOR -- welcome the experience of a practicing chiropractor such as BackTalk. He has several years of experience working in physical rehabilitation (I imagine the PTs will allow me to use that term), which easily trumps any practical knowledge of healthcare that most of us browsing these forums have.

It's not really "ganging up" as much as it is emotionally-fueled debate. PTs and DCs alike tend to be guarded when it comes to discussing practice rights. Most professionals are opinionated in this regard, and protect their rights vigorously.

Perhaps we should let our guards down and discuss the academic, theoretical, and practical aspects of both PT and chiropractic? Stick to the facts, and it's amazing how much progress brights minds such as ours can make.

 

[dpt06eas]

Well written public...like I said, I could go for that.

 

[BackTalk]

First off, BackTalk has not always been the most calm and collected individual. He is definately here in the Physical Therapy forum with an agenda. On occassion he has been know to make derogatory comments on various post about physical therapist such as "go back and rub some muscles, etc."

I agree. Who hasn't had their feathers ruffled on these boards? I am not "definitely here in the Physical Therapy forum with an agenda". If that were the case I would have been the one who initiated the thread. I didn't initiate it, I only responded to it.

I just don't find chiropractic techniques effective or in the best interests of my patients in many cases.

Why is that? Is it because you have hatred towards chiropractors??

Actually it is in our scope of practice, but chiropractors across the country are trying to force us out of it. Like I said, it is all about money and territory, not education or training. There was a bill here in Indiana put up by chiro's trying to eliminate manual therapy from PT's.

Yes, I think we agreed earlier that it is all about money and "turf".

Because as I stated, it is not a generic term and it cheapens what we do. To have someone untrained in what you do, pretending to know and offer the same services, is equivalent to saying that a massage therapist is providing a chiropractic adjustment and advertising as such. How would you feel about that? Haven't you worked hard for the right to be a chiropractor?

I understand your point. Believe me, the last thing any chiropractor wants to be mistaken for is a therapist and I'm sure a therapist does not want to be mistaken as a chiropractor. When patients say "so you're like a physical therapist" to us it's similar to a patient telling a DO that they're basically a chiropractor. There is a difference. Listen, we are trained in the therapy services we offer. Most chiropractors who have full rehab facilities have a diplomate in rehab.

No actually it is illegal in many states for you to perform "physical therapy". You actually missed the point though. If you are (or were) using the argument that PT's should not be able to perform manual therapy, because DC's have more training in it, DC's shouldn't be able to prescribe exercises, because we have more education and training in it. Personally, I don't see really care if you give out exercies, as long as it goes both ways. You give out exercises and I'll perform manual therapy. But don't try to sue me when something "pops".

I would agree that possibly in Michigan it is illegal for a chiropractor to perform physical therapy. This may have changed. Then again, Michigan's scope of practice for chiropractors is a total joke. Also, it is the easiest state to get a license. I would like to see a list of "many states" where it is Illegal. Yes, illegal to make yourself out to be a therapist but not illegal to actually do the treatment. I'm in Illinois and can do all the physical therapy I want. Here's the deal, I recommending exercises to a patient or putting a hot pack on them isn't rocket science and isn't going to have serious consequences if done wrong. Now on the other hand, if you're going to go out and start manipulating patients with out first properly diagnosising them or ruling out anything that could be contraindicated, and only having a weekend seminar in manipulation, your going to be hurting people or killing or crippling them. You're like a baby, "well if you get to do that then I get to do this". Grow up. Since I have "Dr" in front of my name should I go bitch to the orthopedic surgeons and complain that I should be allowed to do surgery too? Or prescribe medications because I had a weekend seminar in pharmacology?

You can call it anything you want, but then don't lay claim to the word "manipulation" then. If you want that word, we want "physical therapy." It is in our practice act. As you stated previously...it is all semantics.

You already have the word "physical therapy" didn't we already agree on that? Didn't I say that it is illegal for anyone to advertise "physical therapy" as it is protected by most or all physical therapy practice acts? You have your word so what's the problem? You own the word but not the treatment. Chiropractors own "chiropractic" and "chiropractic manipulation" and also "chiropractic adjustment" we do not own the word "manipulation". You can use the word; you just can't perform the treatment depending on state practice act.

That's fine, but then don't bring up HealthSouth then. That has nothing to do with the PT's as you implied. It was the upper management and accountants. I was just bringing up the fact (which you have to admit to) that chiropractors have more of a reputation for trying to get money out of people.

Yeah we do have a reputation of having some scammers. We are in private practice and some doctors seem to think that means anything goes. They become creative, instead of focusing on treating patients they focus on making money. It's easy to tell a patient that they have a serious problem and it will take $$$ to fix it. They prey on their fears and it makes me sick! If physical therapists were all in private practice, I'm sure you would see more instances of fraud.

I never said ALL DC's do this, I just said you hear about it more with DC's than with PT's. I just thought you agreed with me that 80% of chiro's were quacks.

I know. 80% is a large number. I can't believe that there are that many chiropractors that are out there that are total quacks. I changed my mind. I would like to see some data to really get an idea of how many bad apples we have. As you probably have noticed, its always the quacks who capture the spotlight.

 

[PublicHealth]

I know. 80% is a large number. I can't believe that there are that many chiropractors that are out there that are total quacks. I changed my mind. I would like to see some data to really get an idea of how many bad apples we have. As you probably have noticed, its always the quacks who capture the spotlight.

BackTalk,

Are there any objective means by which to recognize a quack DC?

 

[BackTalk]

Her point, BackTalk is in the following paragraph she wrote. There are many schools that are heavy in manual techniques. I spent the last two months with a Certified Orthopedic Manual Therapist and learned a lot about that specialty. While I'll admit that I am ignorant to philosophy and scope of DC practice, I will advocate for trained PTs to practice manual therapy without retribution.

I agreed earlier that a PT with additional training should be allowed to perform these treatments. Certified Orthopedic Manual Therapist, from what I understand are very good. At least I've heard the ones in Canada are.

I'm sorry that you think the name of hard-working profession is stupid and generic, however it IS our name in the states. The rest of the world knows us as physiotherapists. Personally I would choose to be called a physiotherapist, but we are protected by the practice acts. Kleenex is a pretty generic name too, Puffs got creative...sooooo...find another name for your rehab and get over it.

I never said that the profession was stupid I said it was stupid that we weren't allowed to use the term when advertising. Even occupational therapists are prohibited from using it, even though they do a lot of physical therapy procedures. I meant the term was generic in the sense that it covered a lot of procedures. It was not my intension to make your profession sound cheap or generic. Sorry but you do not own the word "physical" or "rehab" so I don't think I need to get over anything.

A well trained and educated PT could probably pick out many an error in your "recommended exercises" to help your patients condition.

I guess those "well trained" aren't the countless numbers of physical therapists that just hand a patient a sheet of exercises and tell the patient to go home and "do these". I guess you learned about the physical therapy and rehab courses I had while you were sitting next to me in chiropractic school.

And the last time you were in PT school or attended continuing education for manual therapy in PT was.....when? I'm sorry, I must have missed that, because I'm not sure that you have enough information to judge whether or not I can safely manipulate someones neck.

Again, just like I must have missed sitting next to you in chiropractic school. I'm not sure that you have enough information to judge whether or not I have enough education to perform physical therapy or rehab.

If I am wrong about this, by all means, please keep me abreast of your complete formal education. I am a 1st year PT student and a month ago I was safely manipulating a patients neck under supervision of my CI. Very rarely did we perform any grade 5 manipulations, and the manipulations I was performing were very gentle and specific -- not one patient regressed and not one complained -- I feel very confident that I was safely performing manipulation on the neck. I'll get my lisence in a couple years.

You are a first year PT student. And that qualifies you to know everything there is to know about manual therapy? We're not talking about doing some stretching, soft tissue technique, massage or mobs. I'm talking Manipulation: "Passive movement of short amplitude and high velocity, which moves the joint into the paraphysiologic range. This is accompanied by cavitation or gapping of the joint, which results in an intrasynovial, vacuum phenomenon thought to involve gas separating from fluid. Usually accompanied by an audible pop or click". So tell me, how do you manipulate a C5/C6 right, posterior lateral disc protrusion? What are your contacts, line of drive and patient position? What are the contraindications?

Why have your views changed so much in the past few days BackTalk?
And what is the going rate for chiropractic per hour these days? And again, correct me if I'm wrong as I said previously, but isn't this the STUDENT DOCTOR NETWORK FORUMS? If you are a student BackTalk where are you going to school and for what? If not, why are you in here? Isn't there a warning posted about trolling forums...not that your purpose is to irritate us, but I mean, the DC students are kinda ganging up on the PT students here in the PT/DPT forum. Great conversation though. I mean it. I'd like to know more about the chiropractic profession. But I would also like responses to the questions MSHARO and I asked.

No I'm not a student nor am a troll. I've been here a long time and haven't had anyone tell me to leave because I wasn't a student. In fact, I think most of the people here have been enlightened by reading my posts with regard to chiropractic. Like anyone, I am human and not 100% accurate all the time. I may say one thing that contradicts something I said earlier. I will however try to explain why my opinion has changed. Listen, I criticize my own profession probably more than other people who aren't DC's. My opinion on 80% of the DC population has changed because there really isn't any solid data that shows it is 80%. There are 17 chiropractic colleges and out of that 17 there are a handful of "quack" schools. The majority of schools are not quack schools. Since most of the schools are not quack schools how can 80% of the DC population be a bunch of quacks?

Why do you want to know the going rate for a chiropractor these days? Do you need an adjustment or something? What do you mean about "DC students" ganging up on the PT students? There are no DC students here. Public said he wasn't a DC. AWDC and I are the only DC's here. I think Johnny was a student at one time. We are not ganging up on PT students. The post basically was "Chiropractic Enters VA Hospitals". Why it was posted here is beyond me. It has nothing to do with physical therapists, other than it being in a PT forum. I believe PH said that the PT forum was the closest thing to chiropractic that this network had and that is why he posted it here. The conversation went from chiropractors being in the VA to chiropractors using the term "physical therapy" in a hurry. I think the mud was thrown by someone in the PT profession first who had their own agenda. It wasn't my intention to come here and start a fight.

 

[BackTalk]

BackTalk,

Are there any objective means by which to recognize a quack DC?

Yeah, go to the doctor's office, look at the diploma on the wall and if it's from Life, Sherman or Cleveland it's all the objective data you need.

 

[MSHARO]

We want to know the going rate for an HOUR of chiropractic services because you brought up how absurd it is for a PT visit to be $250. You are the one on other posts who boasts about making 6 figures.

Oh, and by the way....I am NOT a PT student. And just as there a PT's who hand out a sheet of exercises (which they make me sick as well), there are MANY of my patients who come to me after seeing a chiropractor for with no resolution of symptoms, even for a C5-C6 laterally protruded disc. But hey, with me, most often they get relief or at least a significant decrease in symptoms. If I can't provide them relief of their symptoms, improvement of their quality of life and function....I refer them out to a specialist.

As for COMT, at WashU, we happened to be taught by an extremely well qualified individual who spent a significant amount of time in Australia with Maitland or Kaltenborn. Can't remember which one. And there are quite a few good ones here in the US. So do you really know what we can and can't do? Would you allow her to perform "manipulations"? Would you tell others in your profession to allow her to? Again...it is all about money and territory. On both sides.

And nobody said you were a quack..I have actually thought some of your posts have been interesting. I just don't appreciate the derogatory remarks that you and others throw out to PT's on occasion. That is why I haven't called you out on your previous comments. We actually had one of your faculty at Logan and one of your grads come and talk to us at WashU. Did you have any of our faculty or grads come and talk to you? I actually first posted in response to PH's and to back up DOctorJay. So where is my agenda? I am a physical therapist posting in a physical therapy forum.

 

[PublicHealth]

The post basically was "Chiropractic Enters VA Hospitals". Why it was posted here is beyond me. It has nothing to do with physical therapists, other than it being in a PT forum. I believe PH said that the PT forum was the closest thing to chiropractic that this network had and that is why he posted it here. The conversation went from chiropractors being in the VA to chiropractors using the term "physical therapy" in a hurry. I think the mud was thrown by someone in the PT profession first who had their own agenda. It wasn't my intention to come here and start a fight.

First of all, I think we all need to cool off. My original intention of posting the link in this forum was to stimulate discussion regarding the role of chiropractors in hospital-based physical rehabilitation settings. For years, physical rehab services -- INCLUDING in the VA system -- has been the domain of physical therapists. Now, with chiropractors entering the fold, I thought it'd be interesting to see what PTs thought about this change, and what implications this change may have on non-VA hospital-based practice. This was my original intention of starting this thread.

 

[dpt06eas]

Whoa whoa whoa. Back Talk you need to read a little more carefully. Public, Msharo and I have all kissed and made up.
1. I claimed you said that the NAME of our profession was generic/stupid you can't use it...whatever. My point is, I didn't claim you said our profession was stupid. I know you don't think that. We all work hard.
2. I said we'd PROBABLY find many errors with your rehab/exercises. I would be very pleasantly surprised if we found none. And please read what I said again: "While I'll admit that I am ignorant to philosophy and scope of DC practice, I will advocate for trained PTs to practice manual therapy without retribution." I made no claims about knowing everything about manipulation or whatever you said. I AM just a first year PT student and will be THE FIRST to admit I know a minute amount about PT and probably even less about chiropractic. I am simply here to defend my profession. I'm sorry if you were offended by my claim that I would find errors in your rehab/exercises...but that is our "turf." I on the other hand would love to learn about how you practice, especially theories and philosphy, etc....which I already said.
3. As far as the manipulations I performed are concerned, again, please read what I said. Take it for what it is. I did gentle, specific, and SIMPLE manipulations...following Maitlands guidelines. I did these things and were taught these things by the COMT that I was with. AGAIN, I never claimed to know everything about manipulation. SO, I still do believe that I was safely performing manipulations on the neck...the statement you made about not thinking it was safe for a PT to safely perform manipulations on the neck is what I was targeting. I'm sorry if you got offended. I truly am. I am not attacking your profession. This is what I've done, simple as that. And I'm not going to fire back a specific PT question at you, because this is not about who knows more about what. Once again, I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings backtalk.

On that note, now that everyone else has put it aside, how bout some good intellectual converstation about chiro or PT?

 

[BackTalk]

We want to know the going rate for an HOUR of chiropractic services because you brought up how absurd it is for a PT visit to be $250. You are the one on other posts who boasts about making 6 figures.

It doesn't take me an hour to treat a patient. My point wasn't the hourly rate for doing hands on work, it had to do with charging $30 for a hot pack and $60 for interferential per 15 minutes like the rehab center down the road charges. Even ethical people can make six figures.

Oh, and by the way....I am NOT a PT student. And just as there a PT's who hand out a sheet of exercises (which they make me sick as well), there are MANY of my patients who come to me after seeing a chiropractor for with no resolution of symptoms

Well I knew it would only be a matter of time before you brought that up. Gee, I could stoop to your level say the same about the patients I encounter who have gone to physical therapy for 6 weeks and have no relief.

If I can't provide them relief of their symptoms, improvement of their quality of life and function....I refer them out to a specialist.

I think we are all smart enough to know when to refer the patient.

As for COMT, at WashU, we happened to be taught by an extremely well qualified individual who spent a significant amount of time in Australia with Maitland or Kaltenborn. Can't remember which one. And there are quite a few good ones here in the US. So do you really know what we can and can't do? Would you allow her to perform "manipulations"? Would you tell others in your profession to allow her to? Again...it is all about money and territory. On both sides.

I feel if she is qualified to do it she should be allowed to. Since every state is different, I do not know what a PT can and can't do with regard to every state. Same for you with regard to DC.

And nobody said you were a quack.

I never accused anyone of saying I was.

I have actually thought some of your posts have been interesting. I just don't appreciate the derogatory remarks that you and others throw out to PT's on occasion.

I don't blame you. I usually will throw it back when its thrown on me.

That is why I haven't called you out on your previous comments. We actually had one of your faculty at Logan and one of your grads come and talk to us at WashU. Did you have any of our faculty or grads come and talk to you? I actually first posted in response to PH's and to back up DOctorJay. So where is my agenda? I am a physical therapist posting in a physical therapy forum.

I think Logan still has some co-sponsored programs with WashU. We did have a few instructors from WashU that also taught at Logan. We also had a few instructors that also taught at Saint Louis College of Pharmacy and St. Louis College of Medicine. WashU is an excellent school. I believe Dr. Kettner, who chairperson of the Logan's radiology department, has taught or lectured at WashU from time to time. Exactly, What did you think my agenda was?

 

[MSHARO]

We want to know the going rate for an HOUR of chiropractic services because you brought up how absurd it is for a PT visit to be $250. You are the one on other posts who boasts about making 6 figures.

It doesn't take me an hour to treat a patient. My point wasn't the hourly rate for doing hands on work, it had to do with charging $30 for a hot pack and $60 for interferential per 15 minutes like the rehab center down the road charges. Even ethical people can make six figures.

Like I said on several occasions, there are unethical PT's as well, and to me that is unethical. The charges at my clinic usually would come out to about ($132-175) for a full hour of hands on or skilled PT. Obviously less for less time. It is not just moving arms and hauling people out of bed. Those prices are not only absurd (our reimbursed rate was $0 for the hot packs and about $20 for the IFC) but most likely not reimbursed at that rate. Count on about 50% of that. Usually hot packs are not reimbursed at all.

Oh, and by the way....I am NOT a PT student. And just as there a PT's who hand out a sheet of exercises (which they make me sick as well), there are MANY of my patients who come to me after seeing a chiropractor for with no resolution of symptoms

Well I knew it would only be a matter of time before you brought that up. Gee, I could stoop to your level say the same about the patients I encounter who have gone to physical therapy for 6 weeks and have no relief.

Actually you have stooped to that level on previous occasions without my provocation. You were just generalizing about "countless PT's" you (or your patients) have had experience with so I was bringing up the "countless" DC's my patient's have had experience with.

And nobody said you were a quack.

I never accused anyone of saying I was.

Then don't jump all over me when I bring up something which you, at least on some level agree with.

As for COMT, at WashU, we happened to be taught by an extremely well qualified individual who spent a significant amount of time in Australia with Maitland or Kaltenborn. Can't remember which one. And there are quite a few good ones here in the US. So do you really know what we can and can't do? Would you allow her to perform "manipulations"? Would you tell others in your profession to allow her to? Again...it is all about money and territory. On both sides.

I feel if she is qualified to do it she should be allowed to. Since every state is different, I do not know what a PT can and can't do with regard to every state. Same for you with regard to DC.

But would you advocate this to your colleagues or post this on DC's message boards? This is still a PT forum here and you can expect some hostile reaction when saying PT is just generic and that a DC can do it as well. When I started posting, it had to do with how it is illegal for DC's to practice "physical therapy" in several states. I doubt that if I started posting in a chiro forum about how PT's should be allowed to perform chiropractic services it would not be received very warmly.

Anways, I have nothing against DC's who practice in a legit way and use valid treatment techniques. That means refering out to a PT when rehab may more indicated, just as I will refer to a chiro when I think more specific manual therapy is indicated. I don't pretend to be a manual therapist so I send them to those who are more qualified. Just as I would expect the same in return.

 

[BackTalk]

MSHARO,

Like I said on several occasions, there are unethical PT's as well, and to me that is unethical. The charges at my clinic usually would come out to about ($132-175) for a full hour of hands on or skilled PT. Obviously less for less time. It is not just moving arms and hauling people out of bed. Those prices are not only absurd (our reimbursed rate was $0 for the hot packs and about $20 for the IFC) but most likely not reimbursed at that rate. Count on about 50% of that. Usually hot packs are not reimbursed at all.

I know that reimbursement is usually no where near actual charge. It is however, when the case is personal injury or workers comp. Listen, I hate insurance. We get capped, like I'm sure you guys do, with global fees. It's a real pain because it makes it easy to treat the insurance policy over the treatment of the patient. I mean, would you really want to work on a patient for a full hour when you know you are going to be reimbursed $35 dollars? If you worked for yourself you think about that quite often. Believe me, sometimes I wish I could get half the fee.

Actually you have stooped to that level on previous occasions without my provocation. You were just generalizing about "countless PT's" you (or your patients) have had experience with so I was bringing up the "countless" DC's my patient's have had experience with.

Wait a minute. I only brought that up after you said "there are MANY of my patients who come to me after seeing a chiropractor for with no resolution of symptoms". Honestly, and don't take offense. But I do have patients on a regular basis that have had no luck with PT. Maybe you have seen a lot of patients that have already seen a chiropractor; I guess I will have to take your word for it. Listen, we can't fix them all. A lot of the PT's that I have come in contact with are the "here go do some exercises" type. Could explain why these patients are not responding. Also, it usually seems to be the hospital PT that acts this way.

Then don't jump all over me when I bring up something which you, at least on some level agree with.

I don't recall jumping all over you. This is when you brought up the 80% quack thing that I had previously agreed with. All I did was explain that I no longer felt that 80% of profession were quacks.

But would you advocate this to your colleagues or post this on DC's message boards? This is still a PT forum here and you can expect some hostile reaction when saying PT is just generic and that a DC can do it as well. When I started posting, it had to do with how it is illegal for DC's to practice "physical therapy" in several states. I doubt that if I started posting in a chiro forum about how PT's should be allowed to perform chiropractic services it would not be received very warmly.

I understand your point. Why should we be allowed to offer physical therapy services when you're not allowed to offer chiropractic services? All I can tell you is we learned much about physical therapy and rehab while in school. That does not qualify me to be a physical therapist and I know that. I guess it qualifies us to offer those services. On the other hand, I don't think that chiropractors mind if physical therapists offer manual therapy. Most physical therapist do manual therapy such as mobilization and traction. I think that chiropractors do not want physical therapists performing high velocity, low amplitude manipulations. Why? Because it's our stock in the trade. It is my opinion that putting a hot pack on someone or doing ultrasound isn't what you guys consider being physical therapy. You consider rehabbing a patient to be more of what physical therapy is as a profession. In that case, I would understand why you get mad when chiropractors offer these services as it's your stock in the trade, or when chiropractors use physical modalities and try to pass it off as physical therapy in their advertisements. I really know of no solution. Chiropractors will block any types of advancement in scope of practice with concern to physical therapists. Physical therapists do the same to chiropractors as well. I have the feeling we will always be at war.

What do you two think about massage therapists? I mean, they have limited education yet have direct access. They also are offering "medical massage" whatever that is. It seems they are really starting to get involved in offering a lot of hands on physical therapy procedures such as myofascial release and stuff like that. I think we need to concern ourselves more with them than each other.

A lot of what people don't understand is that chiropractors are doctors. We examine patients, render a diagnosis, and treat. We are personally responsible for are patients and can be sued for missing a diagnosis. We order and interpret lab work such as blood work, urinalysis, x-rays, MRI's etc. Like a hot pack isn't necessary physical therapy, popping backs isn't necessary all that chiropractic entails.

Why do physical therapists want to perform manipulations? From what I understand, many do not believe this type of service is very effective compared to low amplitude techniques that you already perform.

Anways, I have nothing against DC's who practice in a legit way and use valid treatment techniques. That means refering out to a PT when rehab may more indicated, just as I will refer to a chiro when I think more specific manual therapy is indicated. I don't pretend to be a manual therapist so I send them to those who are more qualified. Just as I would expect the same in return.

I agree.

 

[BackTalk]

Whoa whoa whoa. Back Talk you need to read a little more carefully. Public, Msharo and I have all kissed and made up.

Huh?

1. I claimed you said that the NAME of our profession was generic/stupid you can't use it...whatever. My point is, I didn't claim you said our profession was stupid. I know you don't think that. We all work hard. 2. I said we'd PROBABLY find many errors with your rehab/exercises. I would be very pleasantly surprised if we found none. And please read what I said again: "While I'll admit that I am ignorant to philosophy and scope of DC practice, I will advocate for trained PTs to practice manual therapy without retribution." I made no claims about knowing everything about manipulation or whatever you said. I AM just a first year PT student and will be THE FIRST to admit I know a minute amount about PT and probably even less about chiropractic. I am simply here to defend my profession.

I am here also to defend my profession. I guess you could call that my agenda. Ok, sometimes my hands type faster than I'm thinking. Are you in the DPT program?

I'm sorry if you were offended by my claim that I would find errors in your rehab/exercises...but that is our "turf." I on the other hand would love to learn about how you practice, especially theories and philosphy, etc....which I already said.

That's right it's your "turf". Many chiropractors feel manipulation is our turf and that's why we become defensive when others want a piece of the action.

3. As far as the manipulations I performed are concerned, again, please read what I said. Take it for what it is. I did gentle, specific, and SIMPLE manipulations...following Maitlands guidelines. I did these things and were taught these things by the COMT that I was with. AGAIN, I never claimed to know everything about manipulation. SO, I still do believe that I was safely performing manipulations on the neck...the statement you made about not thinking it was safe for a PT to safely perform manipulations on the neck is what I was targeting.

I understand. You may look at that technique as "manipulation". Personally I do not. I was more concerned with physical therapists performing HVLA manipulations on the cervical spine (true chiropractic manipulation or technique).


I'm sorry if you got offended. I truly am. I am not attacking your profession. This is what I've done, simple as that. And I'm not going to fire back a specific PT question at you, because this is not about who knows more about what. Once again, I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings backtalk.

Hey, it's cool. I apologize for being conceited. I'm not mad or anything like that. Now that we have the tension out of the way maybe we will be able to learn something from one another. Hey, are you from St. Louis? I am.

 

[BackTalk]

I've been on here all day! I need to get some work done. Look forward to talking again later.

 

[FoughtFyr]

I've been on here all day! I need to get some work done. Look forward to talking again later.

Hey BackTalk, quick question. What is your opinion/reaction to these studies (not to start MacGeyver up on the RCT bit again...)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10768681&dopt=Abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=7884327&dopt=Abstract

http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/166/12/1531

http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/166/12/1544

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11340209

It seems to me that the NIH studies "in favor" of chiropractic, detailed to in an earlier post, indicate that chiropractic is only "as effective" as traditional therapy. Given the risks demonstrated above, why is it that medicine should "accept" chiropractic? No real improvements and lots of risks...

- H

 

[petepete]

I know this may be an old post but I have a question regarding Chiropractors for the members of this forum.

First, am I correct in assuming you do not need a bachelors degree to obtain a D.C. degree?

I say this because I have a friend that has obtained a D.C. from Cleveland College of Chiropractic and he doesn't hold a bachelors degree.

Also, he had friends at his graduation who obtained their bachelors degree the same day as their D.C. degree from the same school (Cleveland again).

Now I ask all of you, can these people consider themselves to be a real doctor in the strict educational sense that they don't even hold a bachelors degree or that they received their bachelors degree the same day as their doctorate degree????

I mean, how would you feel if you walked into a lawyers office and asked him where he went to school and he/she replied "Oh, I didn't goto college but I got my law degree from ......"

 

[FoughtFyr]

I know this may be an old post but I have a question regarding Chiropractors for the members of this forum.

First, am I correct in assuming you do not need a bachelors degree to obtain a D.C. degree?

I say this because I have a friend that has obtained a D.C. from Cleveland College of Chiropractic and he doesn't hold a bachelors degree.

Also, he had friends at his graduation who obtained their bachelors degree the same day as their D.C. degree from the same school (Cleveland again).

Now I ask all of you, can these people consider themselves to be a real doctor in the strict educational sense that they don't even hold a bachelors degree or that they received their bachelors degree the same day as their doctorate degree????

I mean, how would you feel if you walked into a lawyers office and asked him where he went to school and he/she replied "Oh, I didn't goto college but I got my law degree from ......"

Well, I hate to defend chiropractic here, but there are a few six to eight year MD programs where you enter college and six to eight years later graduate with an MD and a BS or BA. I know one of these programs is at Brown University. See: http://bms.brown.edu/plme/
Another is at the University of Missouri - Kansas City. See: http://research.med.umkc.edu/education/default.html - click on combined BA/MD program.

That said, it has been extensively argued on another thread that the DC is not generally seen as an academic doctorate outside of the chiropractic world. Also, the admission requirements as well as the continued matriculation requirements in the combined MD programs are unreal. There is no question these standards are way higher than chiropractic college. And the short answer to your question is no. You do not necessarily need a bachelor's degree to obtain a DC.

- H

 

[BackTalk]

First, am I correct in assuming you do not need a bachelors degree to obtain a D.C. degree?

That is correct. I think only a few colleges require a bachelor's degree. A few states, and others are following, require a bachelors in addition to the DC degree in order to obtain a license. Chiropractic College requires a minimum of 90 credits towards a bachelors degree. I went to Logan and here is what they require.

http://www.logan.edu/pages/prostudent_precourse.asp

I say this because I have a friend that has obtained a D.C. from Cleveland College of Chiropractic and he doesn't hold a bachelors degree.

Cleveland does not require a bachelors degree.

Also, he had friends at his graduation who obtained their bachelors degree the same day as their D.C. degree from the same school (Cleveland again).

Some schools offer a bachelors degree for those who choose to pursue it along with the DC degree. Logan offers a "bachelors in human biology" as well as the DC degree. We have a separate ceremony for it which is about halfway through the program. The 90 credits needed to enroll along with the additional courses in the first two years of chiropractic school is what is needed to get the BS. Here is info on Logan's undergraduate degree. I see that they have added another one.

http://www.logan.edu/pages/bs_humanbio.asp

Now I ask all of you, can these people consider themselves to be a real doctor in the strict educational sense that they don't even hold a bachelors degree or that they received their bachelors degree the same day as their doctorate degree????

We are not real doctors in the sense of being a medical doctor. I think people understand what you are saying when you say "they're not a real doctor". I'm not a medical doctor nor do I claim to be one. Now Chiropractic College is no picnic and I feel I have earned the title "doctor". I agree that it probably is not as demanding or as intense as medical school is. When you graduate you can be proud of earning one of the most prestigious degrees there is.

Chiropractic is a clinical doctoring profession just like dentistry, podiatry and optometry. Cleveland Chiropractic College in my opinion is more of a philosophical school (straight). We know that chiropractic admissions are substandard but most of the straight schools I think make it even easier to get in.

I mean, how would you feel if you walked into a lawyers office and asked him where he went to school and he/she replied "Oh, I didn't goto college but I got my law degree from ......"

I see your point. Aren't there a few DO programs and possibly a few medical programs that do not require bachelor's degree? I thought there were a few 6 year schools that you could go into straight out of high school. We had several people in my class at Chiropractic College that held undergraduate degrees. Just because it's not required doesn't every person that enters doesn't have one or every person has just a 2.5 GPA.

 

[Freeeedom!]

There are a few medical programs that are right out of high school (6years in length...UMKC, NEOUCOM) but the people that enter without a BS are the friggin All Star scholars (those people that you hear about every once in a while). Of my class of 240 students, everyone had a BS or BA.
Many Indian Medical Schools accept students out of secondary school, but Indian Medical Schools are more competative than American Medical Schools.

 

[FoughtFyr]

There are a few medical programs that are right out of high school (6years in length...UMKC, NEOUCOM) but the people that enter without a BS are the friggin All Star scholars (those people that you hear about every once in a while).

Absolutely! I would think that the chiropractic colleges allow the "six-year" type of plan to attract higher quality candidates frash out of high school. No one likes to be told that they are not an "all-star scholar", abd many who were truthfully close don't make the cut at Brown, NEOUCO, or UMKC. Enter the chiropractic college to tell these folks that they really are special and offer a different pathway. At least one that I know of puts on a hard sell. There was a HS senior, valedictorian type individual doing an observation in surgery the other day. He began to ask about chiropractic. It seems an admissions officer from a chiropractic college (I don't know which one) had been calling and trying to "sell" him on chiropractic straight out of HS. Now, this is a stellar student, likely competitive anywhere he will apply. So I am not sure I "blame" them, but it does raise an interesting point.

Another concern would be if the bachelor's degree issued by a chiropractic college concurrently with a DC would be accepted by other colleges if the individual decided to persue other areas of graduate study. Does anyone know? BackTalk?

- H

 

[BackTalk]

H, A bachelors earned in conjunction with a DC degree wouldn't be transferable to most schools. When I first graduated chiropractic school I thought about DO school. Kirksville would only honor a few courses from Chiropractic College. They would however transfer all my premed studies that were earned outside of Chiropractic College. I think the whole thing has to do with accreditation and the school did not recognize the chiropractic schools accreditation agencies.

"Logan College is accredited by the Commission of the Council on Chiropractic Education and the North Central Association of Colleges and Schools ? both of which are recognized by the U.S. Department of Education and the Council on Higher Education and Accreditation."

Things have changed since I've gone to chiropractic school. I know that some chiropractic schools call themselves "universities" now. I think the whole university push was to get their hands on government dollars. So now that they have achieved university status their credits may now be acceptable to other universities. It's not something I would bet on and if I were interested in chiropractic but thought I might switch to DO or MD I would check with those schools and see if credit will transfer. Some chiropractors end up wanting more when they graduate and end up going the DO route. I think DO schools are a little more lenient towards chiropractic transfer students. Some chiros go to the Caribbean to get an MD as well.

What do you doctors think about the Caribbean route? I mean if you are going to be in private practice, does it really matter where you received your MD from? The orthopedist in my office received his MD in France and did his residency in orthopedics at UCLA medical center.

 

[Seaglass]

Generally speaking, obtaining a residency in a specialty as competitive as ortho (or derm, ent, uro, rads, em, g-surg) from a Carrib schools is going to be much more the exception than the rule. Overall I don't have a problem with Carrib MDs, but I wouldn't recommend it if one were set on pursuing one of the more competitive specialties.

 

[Deecee2DO]

Same can be said for med school. Why go through all that only to treat the skin, or the heart, or the lungs, etc? In reality, there are numerous conditions associated with each region of the human body. Neck pain? It could be a disc herniation, DJD, status post-trauma, accel-decel injury (whiplash), torticollis, postural syndrome, etc. Headache? Is it a migraine, tension, or cluster? Some important things to rule out (although we don't treat) are a subdural bleed, tumor, and aneurysm. With back pain, you could have some of the same problems as the neck such as a disc herniation, or other things such as altered biomechanics causing the back pain, or maybe a simple strain, scoliosis (I know, can't cure it but is certainly treatable for improved quality of life), or arthritis. Obviously, there's more but you get the idea.

Bravo, you're obviously an MD, DC or a DO, DC. Well stated

 

[762513]

Push hard. Push fast. Dead for 14 years, it lives again.