Can we stop being our own worst enemies?

[El Curandero]

Alright I'm going to step on a pedestal for a second,

Why do DO students always have to put themselves down? I have never heard a MD/MD student ever say anything bad about DOs. In fact every time I mentioned I was a DO student MDs have seem interested and have made positive comments. So why is it when you bring up OMM or DO pride that most DO students make a snide remark? Do you not believe in the clinical benefits of muscle energy, counterstain, or myofascial release? If you don't than I guess you don't believe in physical therapy.

The world is different today than it was 50 years ago. DO schools are competitive and there are a lot of (good) students who applied for 5 cycles before they got in. We were the catalyst for the whole patient centered care approach. You don't have to settle for a rural family medicine residency if that is not what you want. Hell if you want that big university training program score high on the boards like everyone else who gets in those programs and don't look back.

I'm not saying that there aren't things that we have to tackle (cranial for example) but I think one of our major problems is us burning our own houses down.

El Curandero

Edit: Grammar

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[Goro]

I suspect that my students (and I consider all of you my students) are merely frustrated with the limitations of OMM/OMT and the lack of scientific support for its notions, the hagiographic treatment of AT Still, and the near religious beliefs that some DO faculty have towards OMM/OMT. And then there's the lack of having a teaching hospital and thus having to travel around for rotations. So I understand the frustration.

Yet every year at graduation, when the students have no reason to lie or puff up thier self-esteem, 90% of the graduates tell us that if they had the chance ot attend our school again, they would. Another 5% would go MD, and the other 5% would do something other than Medicine!

 

[Brorthopedic]

The CRI is strong with this one

 

[DocWinter]

Legitimate questions about OMM efficacy does not mean DO students put themselves down or believe they are inferior.

90% of students who complain about OMM complain about crainial, chapmans points or the timedrain that it is on our schedules.

 

[grapefruit17]

I'll take the bait and tell you my opinion. You're def entitled your own beliefs but this is just what I think since you're asking for an opinion.

1. To be completely honest, omm is too much time given the benefit you get out. Most dos will never use omm outside of their first two years of medical school. Some of it has benefits but other parts of it are a little too much for me. For example, doing lumbar diagnosis on a patient and then treating the dysfunction. I think that is very, very subjective and just not very useful compared to other methods of evaluation. I won't go into cranial and cp as that's been discussed a lot on here. Also stuff like splenic pump and the technique where you run their face with your hands to release the sinuses? You have to wonder how people develope the theory behind these techniques.

2. To me, do pride is a concept that has been driven home in order for us to feel "different" and "distinct" than our counterpart mds. But I feel like do is the exact same as md. And I'm happy feeling that way, because I don't want to be different or distinct. I just want md and do to be lumped together. I want people to just think of us as the exact same. We're all doctors.

Just my opinion.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I feel like the biggest thing in general seen in medicine is tearing down people for the perception that they are 'less' doctor than you are. It's a contest of whether or not you went to the right or competitive residency and whether your pedigree is good enough for representing medicine. It's really disruptive noise.

 

[GUH]

I'll take the bait and tell you my opinion. You're def entitled your own beliefs but this is just what I think since you're asking for an opinion.

1. To be completely honest, omm is too much time given the benefit you get out. Most dos will never use omm outside of their first two years of medical school. Some of it has benefits but other parts of it are a little too much for me. For example, doing lumbar diagnosis on a patient and then treating the dysfunction. I think that is very, very subjective and just not very useful compared to other methods of evaluation. I won't go into cranial and cp as that's been discussed a lot on here. Also stuff like splenic pump and the technique where you run their face with your hands to release the sinuses? You have to wonder how people develope the theory behind these techniques.

2. To me, do pride is a concept that has been driven home in order for us to feel "different" and "distinct" than our counterpart mds. But I feel like do is the exact same as md. And I'm happy feeling that way, because I don't want to be different or distinct. I just want md and do to be lumped together. I want people to just think of us as the exact same. We're all doctors.

Just my opinion.

How much time spent on OMM is the right amount, in your opinion?

 

[grapefruit17]

How much time spent on OMM is the right amount, in your opinion?

To be completely honest, I would keep the first year of omm at my school and get rid of the second. The first year was mainly me soft tissue basic stuff with the second year being: chapman points counter stain points effleurage cranial etc.

And have second year consisting of just core classes and clinical skills.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

How much time spent on OMM is the right amount, in your opinion?

I think that OMM does need a change in teaching style and technique. As it is now we are bombarded with hundreds of techniques. I think OMM should not be taught as a collection of techniques but rather less rigid associations of when to use techniques and how to perform them more as logical applications of anatomy. And I agree it probably should be taught first year predominantly and maybe more once in a while second year to make sure you're not rusty.

 

[meliora27]

Chapman's points have as much legitimacy as phrenology. The AOA needs to swallow its pride, and move on from perpetuating this nonsense.

 

[Goro]

Chapman's points have as much legitimacy as phrenology. The AOA needs to swallow its pride, and move on from perpetuating this nonsense.

Or show us some on a histological specimen.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

Maybe I can work with my DO buddies on imaging findings regarding chapman's points. I am sure the study will be very interesting and revealing.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

I feel like the biggest thing in general seen in medicine is tearing down people for the perception that they are 'less' doctor than you are. It's a contest of whether or not you went to the right or competitive residency and whether your pedigree is good enough for representing medicine. It's really disruptive noise.

What are you talking about? My specialty is the best specialty ever and I learned better than you.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

Alright I'm going to step on pedestal for a second,

Why do DO students always have to put themselves down? I have never head a MD/MD student ever say anything bad about DOs. In fact every time I mentioned I was a DO student MDs have seem interested and have made positive comments. So why is it when you bring up OMM or DO pride that most DO students make a snide remark? Do you not believe in the clinical benefits of muscle energy, counterstain, or myofascial release? If you don't than I guess you don't believe in physical therapy.

The world is different today than it was 50 years ago. DO schools are competitive and there are a lot of (good) students who applied for 5 cycles before they got in. We were the catalyst for the whole patient centered care approach. You don't have to settle for a rural family medicine residency if that is not what you want. Hell if you want that big university training program score high on the boards like everyone else who gets in those programs and don't look back.

I'm not saying that there aren't things that we have to tackle (cranial for example) but I think one of our major problems is us burning our own houses down.

El Curandero

Maybe I can work with my DO buddies on imaging findings regarding chapman's points. I am sure the study will be very interesting and revealing.

I got a good laugh. Although the chapmans points aren't too bad to memorize, the diagnostic validity has to be in question when every source has their own varition on them. W/e tho, we are DO students this is what we do.

 

[Mr Roboto]

I'll take the bait and tell you my opinion. You're def entitled your own beliefs but this is just what I think since you're asking for an opinion.

1. To be completely honest, omm is too much time given the benefit you get out. Most dos will never use omm outside of their first two years of medical school. Some of it has benefits but other parts of it are a little too much for me. For example, doing lumbar diagnosis on a patient and then treating the dysfunction. I think that is very, very subjective and just not very useful compared to other methods of evaluation. I won't go into cranial and cp as that's been discussed a lot on here. Also stuff like splenic pump and the technique where you run their face with your hands to release the sinuses? You have to wonder how people develope the theory behind these techniques.

2. To me, do pride is a concept that has been driven home in order for us to feel "different" and "distinct" than our counterpart mds. But I feel like do is the exact same as md. And I'm happy feeling that way, because I don't want to be different or distinct. I just want md and do to be lumped together. I want people to just think of us as the exact same. We're all doctors.

Just my opinion.

I've seen MDs recommend facial effleurage to patients, and known people (from before I started school) who were taught by MDs to do it to themselves and found it beneficial. Maybe it's placebo but placebo is better than nothing.

 

[JB50]

Read SDN. That'll answer your question in about 30 seconds.

 

[Blunt Dissection]

Asides from the aforementioned OMM research (or lack thereof), the other thing that is frustrating is that there is a very real disadvantage when it comes to surgical subspecialties. During the most recent NRMP program director polling, a number of surgical programs have outright said that they will not consider DOs and many make the USMLE a requirement. Despite the merger, this attitude is still pervasive and will not likely change for a very long time.

 

[DrWhozits]

I would argue that with equal USMLE scores, equal research and equal letters from ACGME programs that you can find surgical subs that will view you equal to low tier MD schools.

The issue is, I don't think *most* of us will be able to check all of those boxes due to some of the limitations of many of our schools/own abilities. I think bias is less a problem than just the overall competition that is present for these specialities for DOs and MDs (especially low and mid tier) alike.

Edit: I also think that the USMLE should be required if you want to go head to head with some of the top students.

 

[Mad Jack]

How much time spent on OMM is the right amount, in your opinion?

A felloeship after medical school for the people that are interested in it, and maybe a two week course in first year that covers principles of osteopathy.

 

[Mad Jack]

I've seen MDs recommend facial effleurage to patients, and known people (from before I started school) who were taught by MDs to do it to themselves and found it beneficial. Maybe it's placebo but placebo is better than nothing.

Subocciputal tension release world pretty great on me, instant relief from something literally no medication could touch. I don't think you've got to be a doctor to do it though, I mean, I've taught my girlfriend to do it on me and it works just as well as a OMM/NMM fellow. I like OMM, and I use it a couple of times a week on friends and family, but I doubt I'll ever use it in practice because I can't find a way to justify making it fit, particularly with the specialties I'm interested in.

 

[68PGunner]

Subocciputal tension release world pretty great on me, instant relief from something literally no medication could touch. I don't think you've got to be a doctor to do it though, I mean, I've taught my girlfriend to do it on me and it works just as well as a OMM/NMM fellow. I like OMM, and I use it a couple of times a week on friends and family, but I doubt I'll ever use it in practice because I can't find a way to justify making it fit, particularly with the specialties I'm interested in.

Poor girl. You're already putting her to work.

 

[JB50]

Poor girl. You're already putting her to work.

Poor guy. You have no girl to put to work.













































































nah jk bro im sweet.

 

[grapefruit17]

Since I'm going into psychiatry I'm a bit nervous touching my patients faces. Especially the paranoid schizophrenics.

 

[Mr Roboto]

Subocciputal tension release world pretty great on me, instant relief from something literally no medication could touch. I don't think you've got to be a doctor to do it though, I mean, I've taught my girlfriend to do it on me and it works just as well as a OMM/NMM fellow. I like OMM, and I use it a couple of times a week on friends and family, but I doubt I'll ever use it in practice because I can't find a way to justify making it fit, particularly with the specialties I'm interested in.

I agree. Last week I treated my girlfriend's spasming piriformis with OMT, quite pleased with the results. But will I ever use it in practice.....? Doubtful

 

[Lexicon0]

I agree. Last week I treated my girlfriend's spasming piriformis with OMT, quite pleased with the results. But will I ever use it in practice.....? Doubtful

 

[DO2015CA]

Since I'm going into psychiatry I'm a bit nervous touching my patients faces. Especially the paranoid schizophrenics.

In our OMT lecture regarding psych patients. They said you're supposed to separated the OMT treatments from other psych appointments to set clear lines.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

In our OMT lecture regarding psych patients. They said you're supposed to separated the OMT treatments from other psych appointments to set clear lines.

Yeah, I think the clear line is not touching psych patients. That's literally one of the first thing I got taught in crisis prevention intervention in my prior life.

 

[hallowmann]

Yeah, I think the clear line is not touching psych patients. That's literally one of the first thing I got taught in crisis prevention intervention in my prior life.

So the caveat to this are probably the MDD/mood or anxiety patients. Generally speaking you want to completely avoid treating paranoid, schizophrenic, psychotic, borderline, etc. patients with OMT, especially if they are acutely sick.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

So the caveat to this are probably the MDD/mood or anxiety patients. Generally speaking you want to completely avoid treating paranoid, schizophrenic, psychotic, borderline, etc. patients with OMT, especially if they are acutely sick.

Where would you do this OMT in a psych office tho? On your very Freudian chaise lounge?

 

[grapefruit17]

I would be more surprised if your school didn't teach you/try to teach you how omm is useful on psych patients. We had a whole lecture series on it.

 

[68PGunner]

I agree. Last week I treated my girlfriend's spasming piriformis with OMT, quite pleased with the results. But will I ever use it in practice.....? Doubtful

I'm disappointed that you didn't look at the pelvic diaphragm...

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I would be more surprised if your school didn't teach you/try to teach you how omm is useful on psych patients. We had a whole lecture series on it.

What did they tell you? I don't think we had a lecture on it aside from the 5 models.

 

[68PGunner]

What did they tell you? I don't think we had a lecture on it aside from the 5 models.

Don't give the crazies more opportunities to sue you.

 

[DO2015CA]

What did they tell you? I don't think we had a lecture on it aside from the 5 models.

They said its allowed but needs to be during separate visits so that we set clear lines and they understand that. Make sure nothing is ever misconstrued so be vocal about everything you are doing. Don't use OMM if there is an acute problem. Don't do HVLA (I think this was just the professors preference). There was more but I can't remember.

 

[grapefruit17]

lol I would have to pull up some of the powerpoints since it's been two years but some of it was pretty out there..mainly stuff like cranial on schizos. My school was very, very into omm though.

 

[hallowmann]

Where would you do this OMT in a psych office tho? On your very Freudian chaise lounge?

Haha, no, it would have to be a separate visit for back pain or something. I would not expect a psychiatrist to be doing it, but an FM/PC/combined trained doc with a MDD patient that also complains of pain.

 

[DOFOSHO]

Is there any illness or injury for which omm has greater efficacy than any available modern medicine?

 

[68PGunner]

Is there any illness or injury for which omm has greater efficacy than any available modern medicine?

NO

 

[DO2015CA]

Is there any illness or injury for which omm has greater efficacy than any available modern medicine?

Hypochondriasis

 

[Mr Roboto]

Is there any illness or injury for which omm has greater efficacy than any available modern medicine?

Craniosacral dysfunction

 

[kbeitz]

The osteopathic philosophy is a nice garnish to delusion and insecurity--the usual drinks of choice for medical students.