Can female surgeons have it all?

[browneyes124]

I was reading a lot of the questions in this forum about kids and stuff and have been shadowing a lot lately ( neurologist, cardiologist, etc) and i always ask if they ever considered surgery in their field and most of the laugh it off and are like no way! They have no lives it's awful etc. I also know that a lot of people try to advise women against a surgical speciality because it's very time consuming and hard to have kids and stuff.
I was thinking and had a hypothetical question. A lot of male surgeons I know have stay at home wives and have a few kids( most I've ever seen is 3). If a female surgeon had a husband that was willingly to be a stay at home dad do you think " she could have it all"? Like have her surgical career and have a few kids without it interfering to much with her career?
Also a lot of stuff I've read from female surgery residents makes it seem like it's ok to have 1 kid but having 2 or more in just absolutely ridiculous. Why is that when males have more than 1 and no one thinks it's stupid?

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[dpmd]

Women surgeons can have kids and families. However, if they are going to carry those children it becomes more of an issue than it does for men because that means there are potentially many months where they will not be able to participate in residency (and you need a specific amount of clinical work per year and overall in order to to be eligible for board certification. So one can be pretty feasible, two gets a little trickier,and more would likely require extending your training time. Waiting until after residency can be an option but then there are potential issues due to age. Or they can adopt or use surrogates and then do similar to male surgeons as long as they have a stay a home spouse and are willing to miss out on important moments in their kids life just like the guys do. If they want to be really involved with their kids lives then it is going to affect their career somewhat whether they are male or female, but you could still do it after training (during training it is far less likely). You just have to decide what is right for you and your hypothetical family.

 

[browneyes124]

Women surgeons can have kids and families. However, if they are going to carry those children it becomes more of an issue than it does for men because that means there are potentially many months where they will not be able to participate in residency (and you need a specific amount of clinical work per year and overall in order to to be eligible for board certification. So one can be pretty feasible, two gets a little trickier,and more would likely require extending your training time. Waiting until after residency can be an option but then there are potential issues due to age. Or they can adopt or use surrogates and then do similar to male surgeons as long as they have a stay a home spouse and are willing to miss out on important moments in their kids life just like the guys do. If they want to be really involved with their kids lives then it is going to affect their career somewhat whether they are male or female, but you could still do it after training (during training it is far less likely). You just have to decide what is right for you and your hypothetical family.

Why would you not be able to participate in residency if you were pregnant?

 

[dpmd]

Why would you not be able to participate in residency if you were pregnant?

At the minimum you need sufficient time for labor delivery and recuperation. Add in potential complications (i know several women who got put on bedrest during their pregnancies in residency, one complied and ended up out an extra month, the other was put on bedrest several months prior to delivery but that would have delayed her graduation so instead she came to work and did rounds in from a rolling office chair-she could do this because she was IM but a surgical resident would have needed to stand for cases) and whatever baby bonding time you want to take and it adds up.

 

[browneyes124]

At the minimum you need sufficient time for labor delivery and recuperation. Add in potential complications (i know several women who got put on bedrest during their pregnancies in residency, one complied and ended up out an extra month, the other was put on bedrest several months prior to delivery but that would have delayed her graduation so instead she came to work and did rounds in from a rolling office chair-she could do this because she was IM but a surgical resident would have needed to stand for cases) and whatever baby bonding time you want to take and it adds up.

I heard for some people that you can only take like 2 weeks or something off during residency after you have a child. Idk if that's true. I also know one lady that was a surgical resident ( not sure what kind) but she was operating and doing everything all the way up until a month before delivery. Will you be forced to take a month of or is that only if it was a difficult pregnancy ?

 

[dpmd]

No one is going to force you to take any specific amount of time but there is no guarantee you will be fit for duty right up to the point you go into labor and then no guarantee you will be fit for duty within a few weeks of delivery. That is why it is generally more feasible to not roll the dice more than once or twice if you want to graduate on time.

 

[deleted480308]

do you have a husband willing to stay home with the children? or are you willing to hire childcare instead of raising them yourselves?

 

[freedonia]

I know lots of young families where both parents stay at home for a certain amount of time! For sure most of the time women are staying home longer! You need a good time and energy management but it can work out just fine!!

 

[emarem]

.

 

[kitsunepixie]

Read "Being a Woman Surgeon: 60 Women Share Their Stories." One general surgeon among them had six children!

 

[psychMDhopefully]

"Can female surgeons have it all?" No nobody can have it all, people have tried and all have failed. In this case, your little plan would probably end in burnout, physical exhaustion, and divorce but thats the surgical lifestyle anyway.

 

[Mad Jack]

I was reading a lot of the questions in this forum about kids and stuff and have been shadowing a lot lately ( neurologist, cardiologist, etc) and i always ask if they ever considered surgery in their field and most of the laugh it off and are like no way! They have no lives it's awful etc. I also know that a lot of people try to advise women against a surgical speciality because it's very time consuming and hard to have kids and stuff.
I was thinking and had a hypothetical question. A lot of male surgeons I know have stay at home wives and have a few kids( most I've ever seen is 3). If a female surgeon had a husband that was willingly to be a stay at home dad do you think " she could have it all"? Like have her surgical career and have a few kids without it interfering to much with her career?
Also a lot of stuff I've read from female surgery residents makes it seem like it's ok to have 1 kid but having 2 or more in just absolutely ridiculous. Why is that when males have more than 1 and no one thinks it's stupid?

It mostly has to do with the physical act of carrying the child, as dpmd mentioned. An option, if you would like to have more than one child, is to have one or two in medical school. Or one in medical school and one after training. Doing it during training is tough though, I've heard a lot of nightmare stories. You can swing it a lot of different ways, but there's going to be a lot of work involved no matter what way you slice it.

 

[ann1]

I highly recommend this interview by a 33-year-old urologist. She is very honest about the difficulty of balancing her duties as a surgeon (especially when she was a surgery resident), husband, and mother of two. She also discusses the reality of having a child during residency.

http://www.loveandthesky.com/home/career-profile-fenwa-attending-physician-urology

There are also interviews by ob/gyn residents and attendings, who have a similarly stressful lifestyle.

I was reading a lot of the questions in this forum about kids and stuff and have been shadowing a lot lately ( neurologist, cardiologist, etc) and i always ask if they ever considered surgery in their field and most of the laugh it off and are like no way! They have no lives it's awful etc. I also know that a lot of people try to advise women against a surgical speciality because it's very time consuming and hard to have kids and stuff.
I was thinking and had a hypothetical question. A lot of male surgeons I know have stay at home wives and have a few kids( most I've ever seen is 3). If a female surgeon had a husband that was willingly to be a stay at home dad do you think " she could have it all"? Like have her surgical career and have a few kids without it interfering to much with her career?
Also a lot of stuff I've read from female surgery residents makes it seem like it's ok to have 1 kid but having 2 or more in just absolutely ridiculous. Why is that when males have more than 1 and no one thinks it's stupid?

 

[Lisa Simmerman]

In surgery, too, women have long struggled to gain a foothold, and have been fighting to ... After all, this is surgery. ... It can be all-consuming. They can always do what they want like undergoing rhinoplasty New Orleans or any other related surgery operations in the process.

 

[DrCommonSense]

do you have a husband willing to stay home with the children? or are you willing to hire childcare instead of raising them yourselves?

I think the more pertinent question is: How many WOMEN would be willing to SUPPORT at house husband?

There aren't that many successful women who are willing to do that.

 

[dpmd]

I think the more pertinent question is: How many WOMEN would be willing to SUPPORT at house husband?

There aren't that many successful women who are willing to do that.

According to who?

 

[DrCommonSense]

According to who?

Oh just about all divorce rate studies that show "house husbands" are the most likely category to get divorced by women.

http://www.medicaldaily.com/more-chores-husband-does-more-likely-marriage-will-end-divorce-242815

 

[dpmd]

Oh just about all divorce rate studies that show "house husbands" are the most likely category to get divorced by women.

http://www.medicaldaily.com/more-chores-husband-does-more-likely-marriage-will-end-divorce-242815

You are reading a ton into this study that isn't actually supported by it. There is no evidence in the study that the divorces were because of the woman not wanting to support a house husband.

 

[DrCommonSense]

You are reading a ton into this study that isn't actually supported by it. There is no evidence in the study that the divorces were because of the woman not wanting to support a house husband.

Why am I constantly hearing stories about "educated women" whining about there "not being enough educated men to go around"?

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2015/nov/10/dating-gap-hook-up-culture-female-graduates

If anything, successful women should be happy that so many men have less education so they can be house husbands right?

Here's another study showing women are LESS SEXUALLY SATISFIED if men have less education:

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00224499.2011.574240

 

[dpmd]

Why am I constantly hearing stories about "educated women" whining about there "not being enough educated men to go around"?

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2015/nov/10/dating-gap-hook-up-culture-female-graduates

If anything, successful women should be happy that so many men have less education so they can be house husbands right?

Here's another study showing women are LESS SEXUALLY SATISFIED if men have less education:

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00224499.2011.574240

What the hell does that have to do with the topic you brought up, the original post, or anything being discussed?

 

[DrCommonSense]

What the hell does that have to do with the topic you brought up, the original post, or anything being discussed?

It has EVERYTHING to do with women not WILLING TO MARRY men/support men who do ONLY HOUSEHOLD CHORES.

Therefore, most of women's "difficulty with housework" preventing them from "working as a surgeon" is THEIR OWN FAULT.

Understand now?

Getting tired of this nonsense feminist victim mentality that is total fraud.

 

[dpmd]

It has EVERYTHING to do with women not WILLING TO MARRY men/support men who do ONLY HOUSEHOLD CHORES.

Therefore, most of women's "difficulty with housework" preventing them from "working as a surgeon" is THEIR OWN FAULT.

Understand now?

Getting tired of this nonsense feminist victim mentality that is total fraud.

I understand that you have no clue what you are talking about and seem to be bitter about something or are just trolling.

 

[DrCommonSense]

I understand that you have no clue what you are talking about and seem to be bitter about something or are just trolling.

"Bitter" is a term feminists use as their method of dictating a conversation when they lose factually. Its called "shaming language". Usually they add in stuff like: "You're not a real man, , rape apologist, harasser, etc" to stifle debate.

Im not upset or "bitter" at all when you look at it.

Its women who are the ones constantly WHINING how they "can't have it all".

They have the option of having a house husband and becoming a successful surgeon themselves (just like men who have house wives).

If they fail to achieve this, they can only blame themselves.

Personal responsibility is a difficult concept I know.

 

[fancymylotus]

It has EVERYTHING to do with women not WILLING TO MARRY men/support men who do ONLY HOUSEHOLD CHORES.

Therefore, most of women's "difficulty with housework" preventing them from "working as a surgeon" is THEIR OWN FAULT.

Understand now?

Getting tired of this nonsense feminist victim mentality that is total fraud.

Go do some housework.


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[DrCommonSense]

Go do some housework.


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I have been doing housework during my 20s and early to mid 30s (throughout residency, fellowship and some attending years) on MY own.

Funny how I never used that as a excuse for not being able to work long hours huh?

When I start crying at work that people need to cut me some slack on my hours due to "housework", then by all means cry to me about it.

 

[fancymylotus]

I have been doing housework during my 20s and early to mid 30s (throughout residency, fellowship and some attending years) on MY own.

Funny how I never used that as a excuse for not being able to work long hours huh?

When I start crying at work that people need to cut me some slack on my hours due to "housework", then by all means cry to me about it.

Never heard any female professional cry about housework seriously. Maybe with some sarcasm attached

You sound like you belong on trp


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[DrCommonSense]

Never heard any female professional cry about housework seriously. Maybe with some sarcasm attached

You sound like you belong on trp


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Then why are there thread upon thread crying about how "unfair it is" for women to have to do "housework" and its "keeping them down"? Im not the one bringing that topic up.

You sound like you belong on jezebel. Next stop, fat is "beautiful" and men better "like curves"

 

[fancymylotus]

Then why are there thread upon thread crying about how "unfair it is" for women to have to do "housework" and its "keeping them down"? Im not the one bringing that topic up.

You sound like you belong on jezebel. Next stop, fat is "beautiful" and men better "like curves"

Not sure what Jezebel is, but one thing you don't have is any common sense. Stop while you've got some semblance of a chance of getting out of this one without getting verbally nailed to a wall




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[dpmd]

I have been doing housework during my 20s and early to mid 30s (throughout residency, fellowship and some attending years) on MY own.

Funny how I never used that as a excuse for not being able to work long hours huh?

When I start crying at work that people need to cut me some slack on my hours due to "housework", then by all means cry to me about it.

No one in this thread is crying about needing to work less or whining about not being able to have it all. Op wanted some info on what the challenges are in trying to do so and she got some answers and options. No one is tryng to duck responsibility.

 

[dpmd]

Then why are there thread upon thread crying about how "unfair it is" for women to have to do "housework" and its "keeping them down"? Im not the one bringing that topic up.

You sound like you belong on jezebel. Next stop, fat is "beautiful" and men better "like curves"

You aren't seeing those threads here so you are in fact bringing that topic up

 

[MediCane2006]

Oh boy

 

[fancymylotus]

Where's WS


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[DrCommonSense]

You aren't seeing those threads here so you are in fact bringing that topic up

Ok let me break down the threads from "Women in Healthcare" Forum when I came here to check it out:

1) http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...d-trend-of-men-earning-more-than-wom.1104032/

Thread about women supposedly making less for NO REASON despite insurers paying the exact RVU values regardless of physician sex.

Implication: women are victims of evil men who are holding them down.

2) http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/patients-constantly-think-im-a-nurse.937892/

Thread by woman complaining that she is perceived as a "nurse" you know due to "sexism".

Implication: men are evil misogynists

3) http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/the-old-boys-club.991035/

Colleague fellowship guy is "sexist" because you know he is friendly with other guys in the program.

Implication: men are evil misogynists who make groups to keep women down.

4) http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/female-discrimination-during-residency.719057/

Woman "discriminated against" because you know "too many men". No evidence just the fact they are the evil male sex.

5) http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/cant-believe-this-sexist-article.515646/

Evil "sexist" article asks if its fair for women to work part time hours considering the investment in them.

Conclusion: Men should STFU and not expect anything out of women. If they demand them to work full hours, they are evil "sexists".




Its not as bad as jezebel due to some of the contributors correcting these crazy statements, but its not too far off.

Am I wrong?

 

[dpmd]

Ok let me break down the threads from "Women in Healthcare" Forum when I came here to check it out:

1) http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...d-trend-of-men-earning-more-than-wom.1104032/

Thread about women supposedly making less for NO REASON despite insurers paying the exact RVU values regardless of physician sex.

Implication: women are victims of evil men who are holding them down.

2) http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/patients-constantly-think-im-a-nurse.937892/

Thread by woman complaining that she is perceived as a "nurse" you know due to "sexism".

Implication: men are evil misogynists

3) http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/the-old-boys-club.991035/

Colleague fellowship guy is "sexist" because you know he is friendly with other guys in the program.

Implication: men are evil misogynists who make groups to keep women down.

4) http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/female-discrimination-during-residency.719057/

Woman "discriminated against" because you know "too many men". No evidence just the fact they are the evil male sex.

5) http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/cant-believe-this-sexist-article.515646/

Evil "sexist" article asks if its fair for women to work part time hours considering the investment in them.

Conclusion: Men should STFU and not expect anything out of women. If they demand them to work full hours, they are evil "sexists".




Its not as bad as jezebel due to some of the contributors correcting these crazy statements, but its not too far off.

Am I wrong?

Ok, shifting goalposts again (first claiming women didn't want to support househusbands then when I point out the study doesn't show that then you moved to claiming women said that housework was keeping them down which you were also unable to substantiate). But I'll bite once more.
1. A 2014 post with no replies (besides your reviving post) where someone was trying to uncover reasons for something that is a verifiable fact (that on average women physicians make slightly less than males after controlling for stuff you would easily think of like geography, productivity, etc), the survey posted is just looking for thoughts on why this might happen (some proposed ideas being A. failure to negotiate because only medicare has fixed pay per rvu per area, private insurers can be negotiated with though how successful this will be depends on a lot of things, plus employed physicians can certainly negotiate but perhaps women do not do so as aggressively or as often, and B. undercoding their work). No whining in this thread.
2. There is some whining in this thread, but the discussion is that some men AND women don't think of women as physicians and most of the posts take a suck it up and let them learn by how good a doctor you are to them. The reason for this phenomenon isn't discussed as some evil male conspiracy, but rather due to the historical trends for women to be nurses while men are doctors. If you don't believe it happens at all that is simply your ignorance (you can ask a male nurse how often he is mistaken for the doctor since this is the flip side of the phenomenon which does also occur)
3. A 2013 post where all the replies told the OP she was wrong for blaming it on a gender thing
4. A 2010 post with no replies
5. A 2008 post discussing an article which discusses how two issues are being conflated (the supposed doctor shortage, and the fact that the average female physician works fewer hours than the average male) and how some propose that admission of women to med school should be limited because to this (though the end of the article does point out that younger male doctors are also working fewer hours). Various positions in the replies but considering the average for female physicians was still over 40 hrs per week your statement implying women not wanting to work "full hours" doesn't make much send. No one advocated for anyone being forced to hire women who want work hours that don't align with the business goals, but to advocate for limiting the number of women physicians when those physicians take a disproportionate amount of the lower paying primary care jobs that are at the heart of the physician "shortage" (though in reality it is more of a distribution issue rather than a strict number of physician hours available) is ridiculously stupid whether you wish to label it as sexist or not.

 

[kitsunepixie]

I recommend the Physician Mom's Group on Facebook. 60,000 members, and plenty of surgeon moms represented.

 

[DrCommonSense]

Ok, shifting goalposts again (first claiming women didn't want to support househusbands then when I point out the study doesn't show that then you moved to claiming women said that housework was keeping them down which you were also unable to substantiate). But I'll bite once more.
1. A 2014 post with no replies (besides your reviving post) where someone was trying to uncover reasons for something that is a verifiable fact (that on average women physicians make slightly less than males after controlling for stuff you would easily think of like geography, productivity, etc), the survey posted is just looking for thoughts on why this might happen (some proposed ideas being A. failure to negotiate because only medicare has fixed pay per rvu per area, private insurers can be negotiated with though how successful this will be depends on a lot of things, plus employed physicians can certainly negotiate but perhaps women do not do so as aggressively or as often, and B. undercoding their work). No whining in this thread.
2. There is some whining in this thread, but the discussion is that some men AND women don't think of women as physicians and most of the posts take a suck it up and let them learn by how good a doctor you are to them. The reason for this phenomenon isn't discussed as some evil male conspiracy, but rather due to the historical trends for women to be nurses while men are doctors. If you don't believe it happens at all that is simply your ignorance (you can ask a male nurse how often he is mistaken for the doctor since this is the flip side of the phenomenon which does also occur)
3. A 2013 post where all the replies told the OP she was wrong for blaming it on a gender thing
4. A 2010 post with no replies
5. A 2008 post discussing an article which discusses how two issues are being conflated (the supposed doctor shortage, and the fact that the average female physician works fewer hours than the average male) and how some propose that admission of women to med school should be limited because to this (though the end of the article does point out that younger male doctors are also working fewer hours). Various positions in the replies but considering the average for female physicians was still over 40 hrs per week your statement implying women not wanting to work "full hours" doesn't make much send. No one advocated for anyone being forced to hire women who want work hours that don't align with the business goals, but to advocate for limiting the number of women physicians when those physicians take a disproportionate amount of the lower paying primary care jobs that are at the heart of the physician "shortage" (though in reality it is more of a distribution issue rather than a strict number of physician hours available) is ridiculously stupid whether you wish to label it as sexist or not.

OK lets compare "oppression" between White women and men of all races:

Negatives for White women include: possibly being mistaken for a "nurse" by some old patients, possibly get hit on by patients/other physicians(?) improperly. Can't think of many others but please enlighten me.

Positives include: Affirmative Action in business/academia (far more than even AA/Hispanic males) as the number one group in terms of total numbers, low levels of workplace deaths compared to men, far more funding for breast CA than prostate CA, no selective service requirements, preferential treatment in alimony/divorce/custody cases compared to men, concerns about safety being taken more seriously, don't usually get called out on "crying" in residency compared to men.

Yeah I think I'd take the "average" White female "oppression" over any other group outside of very well connected/rich father man if I got to choose my situation in America 2016.

 

[Maddox_doc]

OK lets compare "oppression" between White women and men of all races:

Negatives for White women include: possibly being mistaken for a "nurse" by some old patients, possibly get hit on by patients/other physicians(?) improperly. Can't think of many others but please enlighten me.

Positives include: Affirmative Action in business/academia (far more than even AA/Hispanic males) as the number one group in terms of total numbers, low levels of workplace deaths compared to men, far more funding for breast CA than prostate CA, no selective service requirements, preferential treatment in alimony/divorce/custody cases compared to men, concerns about safety being taken more seriously, don't usually get called out on "crying" in residency compared to men.

Yeah I think I'd take the "average" White female "oppression" over any other group outside of very well connected/rich father man if I got to choose my situation in America 2016.

Haha you need to learn to let go. Use your common sense, DrCommonSence

 

[DrCommonSense]

Haha you need to learn to let go. Use your common sense, DrCommonSence

Yeah.

There's something perverse about a group of highly privileged people consistently crying oppression though.

 

[kitsunepixie]

My husband is an artist who works from home who is taking time off to stay at home with the baby. So far things are going well. He initially wanted more kids than me (I'm content with just one), so I thought, "Ha! This will change his tune about wanting more." Well, we were blessed with an insanely easy-going baby, so that backfired and he still wants more...d'oh!