Can a PA become board certified?

[NeuroPA]

Can a PA sit for a board exam if he completes a residency in EM? It has always interested me to see if it's possible.


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[goodoldalky]

Did the PA go back and go to medical school and pass the USMLE / equivalent and then complete an EM residency? Then yes. If your question is can someone randomly go and sit for a specialty board exam to become board certified a la catch me if you can with the bar exam, then no.

 

[NeuroPA]

By no means was this post meant to down play the rigorous training any physician goes through. Its just that the lines between P.A and physician sometimes are blurred, what I mean by this is that I saw a "Emergency Medicine Residencies/Fellowships" offered to PA's, so I wasn't sure if this was some special way to be able to sit for a board exam that physicians can take. After further investigation, I saw many other "residencies/fellowships" offered to PA's in various fields (cardiology, critical care, surgery).

 

[rkmoto121]

Those PA residencies that I have seen are only 1 year and the PAs I have talked to say they are just to make them more competitive for jobs.


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[Mad Jack]

By no means was this post meant to down play the rigorous training any physician goes through. Its just that the lines between P.A and physician sometimes are blurred, what I mean by this is that I saw a "Emergency Medicine Residencies/Fellowships" offered to PA's, so I wasn't sure if this was some special way to be able to sit for a board exam that physicians can take. After further investigation, I saw many other "residencies/fellowships" offered to PA's in various fields (cardiology, critical care, surgery).

They are basically just paid internships, not true residencies. They give you a structured year of training with some didactics thrown in to make you more competent at a given job, but aren't true residencies that make one capable of autonomous practice, and certainly don't confer board certification (most grant a certificate of completion).

 

[NeuroPA]

I see, thank you for clarifying this for me. I am applying to MD and DO this upcoming application cycle, but I am also considering PA if I am unable to gain admissions into medical school.

Will a PA ever be given this ability to become board certified in the future given the current trajectory of the career outlook?

 

[Makati2008]

I see, thank you for clarifying this for me. I am applying to MD and DO this upcoming application cycle, but I am also considering PA if I am unable to gain admissions into medical school.

Will a PA ever be given this ability to become board certified in the future given the current trajectory of the career outlook?

Lol nope. I say that as a PA that is currently in EM residency training. If you want to become board certified in a speciality than becoming a physician is the only legit path to do so.


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[NeuroPA]

You would think that there should be an overall climate of encouragement for further education in the medical field. Of course more advanced post graduate coursework coupled with more advanced hands on clinical training would seem reasonable, but it boggles my mind that there is no possible way to advance your training once you become a PA, only one medical school recognizes a PA and allows them to enter with advanced standing in their program and its a DO school.

 

[smq123]

You would think that there should be an overall climate of encouragement for further education in the medical field. Of course more advanced post graduate coursework coupled with more advanced hands on clinical training would seem reasonable, but it boggles my mind that there is no possible way to advance your training once you become a PA, only one medical school recognizes a PA and allows them to enter with advanced standing in their program and its a DO school.

Why does that boggle the mind?

PA is not meant to be a "terminal degree" like an MD or DO is. And that has always been one of the key caveats to becoming a PA - you will always be a physician extender, and rarely ever the "top guy" at the clinic/hospital/emergency department. And some people are perfectly ok with that.

You can become a professor, you can teach, you can see patients, but you're basically asking if there's anyway that a PA can be recognized as, basically, a physician, and the answer is - no.

 

[Fox800]

This thread makes my head hurt. The incredulousity doesn't help.

Go to medical school and finish an ACGME-accredited residency program if you want to be board certified.

 

[GonnaBeADoc2222]

The confusion here is confusing me.

Should I be allowed to be a board certified Dermatologist or Neurosurgeon simply because I spent some time with them and studied for a test and passed it?

Things have prerequisites.

The prerequisite for ABEM certification is 4 years of medical school, passage of all 4 parts of the USMLE, completion of training in a 3 or 4 year residency program, and passage of the ABEM Qualifying and Oral exams.

 

[NeuroPA]

Apologies for anyone who put off by my ideas. I am new to the medical field, and don't quite understand why and how things operate to the fullest extent. For the average person, there is a mystique about physicians, their specialization, residencies, fellowships, and why things are the way they are. To undermine a thought or idea on the expectation someone should have a 360 degree understanding of the complexities of the healthcare system is disheartening.

 

[smq123]

Apologies for anyone who put off by my ideas. I am new to the medical field, and don't quite understand why and how things operate to the fullest extent. For the average person, there is a mystique about physicians, their specialization, residencies, fellowships, and why things are the way they are. To undermine a thought or idea on the expectation someone should have a 360 degree understanding of the complexities of the healthcare system is disheartening.

That's ok. We were all newbies once.

But your post makes me a little worried about you becoming a PA. Because if you plan on maybe becoming a PA, even if it is a fallback idea, you should be aware of what that means. That means that, no, you will never officially recognized as an "expert" in your field, the way that a physician might. You will never have that little certificate on the wall that speaks to your expertise in a specialty, the way that an ABEM certified physician will. And you have to be ok with that if you're going to be a PA. If you're not, you will definitely need a second Plan B....

 

[mcworbust]

Apologies for anyone who put off by my ideas. I am new to the medical field, and don't quite understand why and how things operate to the fullest extent. For the average person, there is a mystique about physicians, their specialization, residencies, fellowships, and why things are the way they are. To undermine a thought or idea on the expectation someone should have a 360 degree understanding of the complexities of the healthcare system is disheartening.

I was about to reply to say that, if you are disheartened by having a thought or idea undermined that you should maybe get thicker skin, or reconsider Emergency Medicine as a PA or Med student. But, I looked thru your post history and it seems like you've gone thru a lot and developed a thick skin to survive to get to this point, so instead I'll just encourage you to leverage the difficult times you've had to cope with feeling disheartened about this or other situations.

You would think that there should be an overall climate of encouragement for further education in the medical field. Of course more advanced post graduate coursework coupled with more advanced hands on clinical training would seem reasonable, but it boggles my mind that there is no possible way to advance your training once you become a PA, only one medical school recognizes a PA and allows them to enter with advanced standing in their program and its a DO school.

Also, just want to point out that there IS a climate of furthering education - you should be learning every day as a PA or otherwise, and especially as a physician lifelong learning is key. I would also encourage any of my PA friends to go to medical school if they want to practice as a physician as that is the path that is available.

So after all that I'm sure I'm probably coming off like a jerk (sorry), but keep asking questions and keep searching the forums for answers. best of luck!

 

[SamtheWise]

You would think that there should be an overall climate of encouragement for further education in the medical field. Of course more advanced post graduate coursework coupled with more advanced hands on clinical training would seem reasonable, but it boggles my mind that there is no possible way to advance your training once you become a PA, only one medical school recognizes a PA and allows them to enter with advanced standing in their program and its a DO school.

While I understand the sentiment, the things you learn in PA school and medical school are very different. PA school seems like it is focused on rapidly acquiring some very basic medical knowledge and applying it to the job of being a PA, whereas medical school is focused on an in-depth understanding of physiology and pathophysiology with arguably less practical application. I rotated with some PA students on one service once, and while they could present patients and write notes, they just didn't have the same understanding of disease processes that we did. That's not a putdown: they were very intelligent quick learners, but the focus of their education was just very different.

A PA needs to come out of school ready to see patients and function in a relatively autonomous role, whereas a medical student should come out of school fairly undifferentiated, but with a much larger and broader base of knowledge.

 

[goodoldalky]

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[racerwad]

Apologies for anyone who put off by my ideas. I am new to the medical field, and don't quite understand why and how things operate to the fullest extent. For the average person, there is a mystique about physicians, their specialization, residencies, fellowships, and why things are the way they are. To undermine a thought or idea on the expectation someone should have a 360 degree understanding of the complexities of the healthcare system is disheartening.

I don't think folks are attempting to undermine your thoughts. I think that we are just pointing out some inconsistencies in your logic with info that is easily gleaned from reading this board or Wikipedia. The idea of going through an alternate, less comprehensive pathway to arrive at the same endpoint simply undermines that endpoint. If you want to have the knowledge and expertise, you'll have to put in the time. I would imagine that you would be skeptical if someone wanted to do some basic first aid courses and some ride alongs and then claim equivalency to your EMT-B (or advanced, or P). Same thing applies here.

 

[engineeredout]

I wanna be an astronaut.

 

[Darth Doc]

I am new to the medical field, and don't quite understand why and how things operate to the fullest extent.

I'm a physician assistant now in my 3rd year of medical school. Both are great professions, but there are distinct differences. There are important reasons why physician assistants aren't qualified to be physicians. Feel free to PM me. Since I've seen both educations, I may be able to answer questions for you.

 

[Psai]

I'm a physician assistant now in my 3rd year of medical school. Both are great professions, but there are distinct differences. There are important reasons why physician assistants aren't qualified to be physicians. Feel free to PM me. Since I've seen both educations, I may be able to answer questions for you.

The funny thing is that even though youve been through so much, you havent even gotten to the good part yet

 

[SilentCool]

You would think that there should be an overall climate of encouragement for further education in the medical field. Of course more advanced post graduate coursework coupled with more advanced hands on clinical training would seem reasonable, but it boggles my mind that there is no possible way to advance your training once you become a PA, only one medical school recognizes a PA and allows them to enter with advanced standing in their program and its a DO school.

Dude, you're definitely PA material. Save yourself some time.

 

[Darth Doc]

The funny thing is that even though youve been through so much, you havent even gotten to the good part yet

I've enjoyed the journey, but I'm looking forward to the good part!

 

[WilcoWorld]

No, a PA can not become a board certified emergency physician.

However, becoming a PA in EM is a very good option with a lot of advantages to recommend it (shorter training, less debt, possibly not being scheduled for overnights). Disadvantages include lower pay and the lack of fully independent practice.

 

[WilcoWorld]

Besides, everybody knows that the way to become a doctor is to go to nursing school.

 

[SilentCool]

Besides, everybody knows that the way to become a doctor is to go to nursing school.

And be sure to capitalize the word "Doctor."

 

[deleted6669]

PAs with postgraduate training and/or significant job experience in EM can take the certificate of added qualifications exam in Emergency medicine offered by the NCCPA, our certification body.
There are didactic and skills requirements as well as physician skill sign off on a variety of em procedures. I took it the first time it was offered in 2011.
Emergency Medicine CAQ for Physician Assistants - NCCPA

 

[SilentCool]

PAs with postgraduate training and/or significant job experience in EM can take the certificate of added qualifications exam in Emergency medicine offered by the NCCPA, our certification body.
There are didactic and skills requirements as well as physician skill sign off on a variety of em procedures. I took it the first time it was offered in 2011.
Emergency Medicine CAQ for Physician Assistants - NCCPA

Of course you did.

 

[deleted6669]

worked out well. got full EM privileges at the hospital I work at now. no restrictions to practice.

 

[SilentCool]

worked out well. got full EM privileges at the hospital I work at now. no restrictions to practice.

 

[Psai]

worked out well. got full EM privileges at the hospital I work at now. no restrictions to practice.

God I hope this practice doesn't spread. A lot of the admissions we get are terrible as it is

 

[Yadster101]

While I understand the sentiment, the things you learn in PA school and medical school are very different. PA school seems like it is focused on rapidly acquiring some very basic medical knowledge and applying it to the job of being a PA, whereas medical school is focused on an in-depth understanding of physiology and pathophysiology with arguably less practical application. I rotated with some PA students on one service once, and while they could present patients and write notes, they just didn't have the same understanding of disease processes that we did. That's not a putdown: they were very intelligent quick learners, but the focus of their education was just very different.

A PA needs to come out of school ready to see patients and function in a relatively autonomous role, whereas a medical student should come out of school fairly undifferentiated, but with a much larger and broader base of knowledge.

It depends on which PA school. At UIowa the PA students and med students have the exact same curriculum for preclinicals and they are indistinguishable from the MS1s/MS2s. At the other med school in the state (DMU) the med students and PA students take some of the same classes like pharm. I certainly would not say that the things they learn are "very different". The difference between a PA and an MD/DO is residency.

 

[deleted6669]

It depends on which PA school. A UIowa the PA students and med students have the exact same curriculum for preclinicals and they are indistinguishable. At the other med school in the state (DMU) the med students and PA students take some of the same classes like pharm.

the postgrad programs vary as well. The better ones are the same as the pgy-1 yr of an affiliated em residency. there are 30 postgrad programs/fellowships/residencies for PAs. the vast majority are quite good. most are now 12-18 months.

 

[Yadster101]

the postgrad programs vary as well. The better ones are the same as the pgy-1 yr of an affiliated em residency. there are 30 postgrad programs/fellowships/residencies for PAs. the vast majority are quite good. most are now 12-18 months.

Yea but lets be honest about the post grad programs. Newly minted EM PAs can make ~60/hr and work their way up to ~75/hr in 3 years or so. For a new PA there is very little financial incentive in doing a residency. If you are genuinely interested in learning how to intubate, central lines, chest tube etc. then go for the residency. But most PAs would rather get that training on the job without having to make the financial sacrifice that comes along with a residency. The residencies are pretty competitive though since there are just so few slots.

 

[deleted6669]

Yea but lets be honest about the post grad programs. Newly minted EM PAs can make ~60/hr and work their way up to ~75/hr in 3 years or so. For a new PA there is very little financial incentive in doing a residency. If you are genuinely interested in learning how to intubate, central lines, chest tube etc. then go for the residency. But most PAs would rather get that training on the job without having to make the financial sacrifice that comes along with a residency. The residencies are pretty competitive though since there are just so few slots.

very few jobs now will train PAs to do full scope emergency medicine outside of a residency. most of the serious EMPAs I know either were former medics who got great jobs or residency grads. most em pa jobs, unfortunately, are fast track only or fast track + low acuity workups.

 

[Fox800]

And be sure to capitalize the word "Doctor."

Ah, yes. Reminds me to rage at the neurosurgery NP that has "Dr. xxxxxxxx" on her work jacket.

 

[SilentCool]

Ah, yes. Reminds me to rage at the neurosurgery NP that has "Dr. xxxxxxxx" on her work jacket.

Probably more like, "Dr. XXXXXXX, NP, RN, BSN, LOL, WTF...(etc.)"

 

[Fox800]

Probably more like, "Dr. XXXXXXX, NP, RN, BSN, LOL, WTF...(etc.)"

"If I embroider it on my soft shell, people will respect me! Lollllzzzzz"

 

[SilentCool]

 

[Fox800]

Lol. What's the name of this meme?

 

[SilentCool]

Lol. What's the name of this meme?

You can name it whatever you want.

 

[Fox800]

Condescending fox
Fits my profile name and persona perfectly.

 

[RustedFox]

Where'd you get this picture of my wife ?!

 

[SpacemanSpifff]

very few jobs now will train PAs to do full scope emergency medicine outside of a residency. most of the serious EMPAs I know either were former medics who got great jobs or residency grads. most em pa jobs, unfortunately, are fast track only or fast track + low acuity workups.

What do you imagine the role of PA's in the emergency department to be? Genuinely curious. I had always thought that this is exactly the role of advanced practice providers in the ED.

 

[deleted6669]

What do you imagine the role of PA's in the emergency department to be? Genuinely curious. I had always thought that this is exactly the role of advanced practice providers in the ED.

Depends on the individual PA, their training and experience, and the needs of their community. while most EM PAs do low acuity work(and there is certainly a place for that), PAs with a desire to see sicker patients who get additional training beyond what is available in PA school can find places that will utilize their skills. typically these are very rural or undesirable areas that can not attract/afford/retain an EM boarded physician. A good em pa is a better fit for a rural ED than your avg FP physician. After 30 years working in emergency medicine, I now work exclusively single coverage, rural, critical access hospitals seeing every patient and performing every procedure. high acuity and low volume is a lot more fun than high volume and low acuity.

 

[Yadster101]

Depends on the individual PA, their training and experience, and the needs of their community. while most EM PAs do low acuity work(and there is certainly a place for that), PAs with a desire to see sicker patients who get additional training beyond what is available in PA school can find places that will utilize their skills. typically these are very rural or undesirable areas that can not attract/afford/retain an EM boarded physician. A good em pa is a better fit for a rural ED than your avg FP physician. After 30 years working in emergency medicine, I now work exclusively single coverage, rural, critical access hospitals seeing every patient and performing every procedure. high acuity and low volume is a lot more fun than high volume and low acuity.

idk if it needs to be super rural. I know of some areas in the mid-west that let PAs do advanced procedures they learned in residency.

 

[deleted6669]

idk if it needs to be super rural. I know of some areas in the mid-west that let PAs do advanced procedures they learned in residency.

typical communities that have PAs running EDs are population <25,000, often less than 10,000. the place I am working today sees about 5000 pts/year. in a typical 24 hr shift I see 8-18 pts with the full range of acuity. have intubated 20 times in the last year, multiple codes, cardioversions, traumas, reductions, etc.

 

[doctalaughs]

Whats up with the trend of calling this sort of midlevel unregulated post-grad training "residencies?" It seems a bit deceitful to me, kind of trying to convince the unaware they are similar to a physician residency. It's definitely all the rage for NPs to say they did "residency" in XYZ specialty now but I didn't know this has spread to PAs as well. Why not be truthful and just call it a course, or maybe a certification instead of selling it for more than it really is?


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[Psai]

Whats up with the trend of calling this sort of midlevel unregulated post-grad training "residencies?" It seems a bit deceitful to me, kind of trying to convince the unaware they are similar to a physician residency. It's definitely all the rage for NPs to say they did "residency" in XYZ specialty now but I didn't know this has spread to PAs as well. Why not be truthful and just call it a course, or maybe a certification instead of selling it for more than it really is?


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Just the next step for people who want to call themselves residency trained, board certified doctors
Probably will show up with MP degrees next (doctorate in medical physician)

 

[deleted6669]

Whats up with the trend of calling this sort of midlevel unregulated post-grad training "residencies?" It seems a bit deceitful to me, kind of trying to convince the unaware they are similar to a physician residency. It's definitely all the rage for NPs to say they did "residency" in XYZ specialty now but I didn't know this has spread to PAs as well. Why not be truthful and just call it a course, or maybe a certification instead of selling it for more than it really is?


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the PA postgrad programs are more than just a certification course. most are equivalent to the PGY-1 yr in the same specialty. 80-100 hrs/week, 1st call, off service rotations, crappy pay, journal clubs, QA projects, etc, etc. Also keep in mind these programs are started, run, and overseen by PHYSICIAN specialists. that being said, most programs are now called "PA Fellowships". At least in EM, these programs meet a standard developed by ACEP in conjunction with SEMPA(Soc of EM PAs). the trend is for programs to meet all eligibility requirements for the EM CAQ (see post # 27 above).

 

[deleted6669]

Just the next step for people who want to call themselves residency trained, board certified doctors
Probably will show up with MP degrees next (doctorate in medical physician)

actually, those of us in the PA world with doctorates(such as myself) go out of our way to NOT use the term at work as it might cause confusion.
I have PA, DHSc on my name tag, scripts, etc, NOT Dr Emedpa. If anyone asks what the DHSc is, I explain it is a 4 year academic degree in global health, not a doctorate in medicine.