Bodybuilding during residency and beyond?

[DrCommonSense]

To my prior point. The bodybuilding community (going back to the days of the Golden Era), has understood the benefits of low carb even before Atkins was writing about it. Here's a paste of Dr. Prisk's diet from the link above: Bottom line. Wanna lose weight? Limit the carbs. This applies to MOST people but again, I acknowledge the 20% of folks whom are very insulin sensitive where they may not need to go as low.

• 
  Meal 1:
  • 12 egg whites
  • 2 whole eggs
  • ½ cup of broccoli
  • Hydroxycut Hardcore
  
  
  Meal 2:
  • Nitro-Tech RTD
  • ½ cup of cashews
  
  
  Meal 3:
  • 12 oz. tilapia
  • Almonds
  
  
  Meal 4:
  • 10 oz. lean beef
  • ½ cup of broccoli
  
  
  Pre-workout:
  • Hydroxycut Hardcore
  
  
  Post-workout:
  • Anator-p70
  • Nitro-Tech RTD
  
  
  Meal 7:
  • 12 egg whites
  • Vegetables
  • Apple vinegar

Im missing the part about clen/test/tren/HGH

A few OTC supplements from GNC and egg whites don't cause a gut to distend like that brah

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[deleted162650]

Do you even lift bro??

 

[OrthoBod]

Great advice there from most of you.

I posted my story before so I am still in the journey. Newbie here.
I was wondering if I can post what I am doing at the moment and you experienced guys can critique it. Point out the mistakes for me.

PGY1 - Ortho.
Weight - 78 kg
% BF: Dont know
Mirror: I look average
Meals: All same! I cannot afford to cook with different stuff, no time =( I mass cook boiled chicken then marinate with spices, cut veges etc
So I end up with this box at the end of the day which I eat 4 times a day.
Chicken 80g, Palmful of mix veges (Broccoli, spinach etc), few almonds and walnuts, berries.

6.00 am - Meal 1 Above meal + 2 whole meal bread toasts.
11 am - Meal 2
Workout 2.30 - 3.30 (Lunch break)
5 pm - Meal 3
8 pm - Meal 4
If i get hungry - i just gobble veges at night.

I am not taking anything, not even protein shakes. I tried for a week, protein shakes, L carnitine, glut, Cr.. All this gives heavy diarrhea. Never used before.
This is what i did for the past 8 months and lost weight from 100 kgs down to 78

Split:
5 days a week. I am totally knocked down when I am oncall, I do a 2 hour cardio (mild jog/walk) on the post call day. So I work out 5 days a week.
Sat: Legs + 15 min cardio
Sun: Chest + 15 min cardio
Mon: Oncall
Tues: Post call (2 hour cardio)
Wed: Shoulders + 15 min cardio
Thurs:Back
Fri: Arms
Could be oncall twice a week. Then i get 4 days so i combine one day with the other
Gym could be anytime, bag in the car and which ever near by gym i can get hands on,.

So a complete newbie, dont understand much.
Goal: Weight loss for the moment
Ofcourse I want to get bigger, but focusing on gaining lean mass later.

 

[GA8314]

Im missing the part about clen/test/tren/HGH

A few OTC supplements from GNC and egg whites don't cause a gut to distend like that brah

LOL, no I was just making a point that most BB's who want to shed fat, lower their insulin signal, via low carb.

I agree there's something about newer generation pro BB's (using insulin and GH) seem to have this weird "GH gut". It's crazy. I wonder, however, if there may be a link between either a certain threshold of AAS which increases visceral fat? The Golden Era guys did not have that. They didn't have GH, but they also didn't use Tren and some other less available compounds either.....

So, the question is, is it intestinal edema/growth, or is that visceral fat? I don't know. Thoughts?

 

[GA8314]

Im missing the part about clen/test/tren/HGH

A few OTC supplements from GNC and egg whites don't cause a gut to distend like that brah

LOL, no I was just making a point that most BB's who want to shed fat, lower their insulin signal, via low carb.

I agree there's something about newer generation pro BB's (using insulin and GH) seem to have this weird "GH gut". It's crazy. I wonder, however, if there may be a link between either a certain threshold of AAS which increases visceral fat? The Golden Era guys did not have that. They didn't have GH, but they also didn't use Tren and some other less available compounds either.....

So, the question is, is it intestinal edema/growth, or is that visceral fat? I don't know. Thoughts?

 

[teacher2md]

Great advice there from most of you.

I posted my story before so I am still in the journey. Newbie here.
I was wondering if I can post what I am doing at the moment and you experienced guys can critique it. Point out the mistakes for me.

PGY1 - Ortho.
Weight - 78 kg
% BF: Dont know
Mirror: I look average
Meals: All same! I cannot afford to cook with different stuff, no time =( I mass cook boiled chicken then marinate with spices, cut veges etc
So I end up with this box at the end of the day which I eat 4 times a day.
Chicken 80g, Palmful of mix veges (Broccoli, spinach etc), few almonds and walnuts, berries.

6.00 am - Meal 1 Above meal + 2 whole meal bread toasts.
11 am - Meal 2
Workout 2.30 - 3.30 (Lunch break)
5 pm - Meal 3
8 pm - Meal 4
If i get hungry - i just gobble veges at night.

I am not taking anything, not even protein shakes. I tried for a week, protein shakes, L carnitine, glut, Cr.. All this gives heavy diarrhea. Never used before.
This is what i did for the past 8 months and lost weight from 100 kgs down to 78

Split:
5 days a week. I am totally knocked down when I am oncall, I do a 2 hour cardio (mild jog/walk) on the post call day. So I work out 5 days a week.
Sat: Legs + 15 min cardio
Sun: Chest + 15 min cardio
Mon: Oncall
Tues: Post call (2 hour cardio)
Wed: Shoulders + 15 min cardio
Thurs:Back
Fri: Arms
Could be oncall twice a week. Then i get 4 days so i combine one day with the other
Gym could be anytime, bag in the car and which ever near by gym i can get hands on,.

So a complete newbie, dont understand much.
Goal: Weight loss for the moment
Ofcourse I want to get bigger, but focusing on gaining lean mass later.

Check out Reddit.com/r/gainit

There's a lot of good information about lifting (both for bulking and cutting).

 

[teacher2md]

Edit--duplicate

 

[PonyUp]

Great advice there from most of you.

I posted my story before so I am still in the journey. Newbie here.
I was wondering if I can post what I am doing at the moment and you experienced guys can critique it. Point out the mistakes for me.

PGY1 - Ortho.
Weight - 78 kg
% BF: Dont know
Mirror: I look average
Meals: All same! I cannot afford to cook with different stuff, no time =( I mass cook boiled chicken then marinate with spices, cut veges etc
So I end up with this box at the end of the day which I eat 4 times a day.
Chicken 80g, Palmful of mix veges (Broccoli, spinach etc), few almonds and walnuts, berries.

6.00 am - Meal 1 Above meal + 2 whole meal bread toasts.
11 am - Meal 2
Workout 2.30 - 3.30 (Lunch break)
5 pm - Meal 3
8 pm - Meal 4
If i get hungry - i just gobble veges at night.

I am not taking anything, not even protein shakes. I tried for a week, protein shakes, L carnitine, glut, Cr.. All this gives heavy diarrhea. Never used before.
This is what i did for the past 8 months and lost weight from 100 kgs down to 78

Split:
5 days a week. I am totally knocked down when I am oncall, I do a 2 hour cardio (mild jog/walk) on the post call day. So I work out 5 days a week.
Sat: Legs + 15 min cardio
Sun: Chest + 15 min cardio
Mon: Oncall
Tues: Post call (2 hour cardio)
Wed: Shoulders + 15 min cardio
Thurs:Back
Fri: Arms
Could be oncall twice a week. Then i get 4 days so i combine one day with the other
Gym could be anytime, bag in the car and which ever near by gym i can get hands on,.

So a complete newbie, dont understand much.
Goal: Weight loss for the moment
Ofcourse I want to get bigger, but focusing on gaining lean mass later.

I would get more rest. You ever done a 3 day split? Just pair some of your groups. Personally I paired legs with whatever group was lagging but for the most part I did the conventional back/bi leg/shoulder chest/tri for most of my life and it works for me. If you truly need your cardio day and don't think you're getting enough core to balance out your back do some core work on your cardio day. Otherwise just remember that balance is key.
I would try whey again. It was most likely the creatine that was giving you the creatine s***s. It's a cheap source of protein, doesnt involve you cooking it, you can leave zip-locs of it in your bag and take it whenever, wherever. You could also be sensitive to the whey or you could have been overdoing it.

 

[OrthoBod]

I would get more rest. You ever done a 3 day split? Just pair some of your groups. Personally I paired legs with whatever group was lagging but for the most part I did the conventional back/bi leg/shoulder chest/tri for most of my life and it works for me. If you truly need your cardio day and don't think you're getting enough core to balance out your back do some core work on your cardio day. Otherwise just remember that balance is key.
I would try whey again. It was most likely the creatine that was giving you the creatine s***s. It's a cheap source of protein, doesnt involve you cooking it, you can leave zip-locs of it in your bag and take it whenever, wherever. You could also be sensitive to the whey or you could have been overdoing it.

Thanks for the tips! and thanks teacher2md
You are right, balance is the key.

I usually pair when i know week is going to be tough and oncalls would be in 1 in 3. But admittingly it is so hard! To study, to keep track of your diet and workouts, research, workload, oncalls.. I am getting used to it as an R1 but i still need more time.

Needed to speed up the shaping up process, marrying soon =D

 

[MaximusD]

Used to do a lot of high intensity stuff like p90x and weight lifting and all it got me was a HNP in my neck.

 

[btbam]

To my prior point. The bodybuilding community (going back to the days of the Golden Era), has understood the benefits of low carb even before Atkins was writing about it. Here's a paste of Dr. Prisk's diet from the link above: Bottom line. Wanna lose weight? Limit the carbs. This applies to MOST people but again, I acknowledge the 20% of folks whom are very insulin sensitive where they may not need to go as low.

• 
  Meal 1:
  • 12 egg whites
  • 2 whole eggs
  • ½ cup of broccoli
  • Hydroxycut Hardcore
  
  
  Meal 2:
  • Nitro-Tech RTD
  • ½ cup of cashews
  
  
  Meal 3:
  • 12 oz. tilapia
  • Almonds
  
  
  Meal 4:
  • 10 oz. lean beef
  • ½ cup of broccoli
  
  
  Pre-workout:
  • Hydroxycut Hardcore
  
  
  Post-workout:
  • Anator-p70
  • Nitro-Tech RTD
  
  
  Meal 7:
  • 12 egg whites
  • Vegetables
  • Apple vinegar

Who the hell uses MuscleTech products in 2017?

 

[DrCommonSense]

Who the hell uses MuscleTech products in 2017?

Guys who use roids and pretend they are using OTC GNC products.

Its their method of "subterfuge" for the gullible people and to pretend they are "natty"

This has been going on for years.

 

[Disciple]

It has been almost been 8 years now. Id love to know what happened to the guys who were discussing above.
Is anyone still out there to discuss. Ive got few questions about residency and weight lifting lifestyle, tips and advices.

Basically, a PGY1/R1 here (Ortho) wanting to speak to some attendings/Residents on how they are doing it.

I basically failed medical school, gained weight (105 kgs), was taking anti depressants and antianxiety meds.
Fought my way through, currently 78kg, had to do a million things to get into ortho. And who was by my side? No ****ing person except gym and workouts.
Love this lifestyle and wanting to move forward but finding it hard to progress. Anyone out there for advice?

Haven't lifted regularly in a while, and primarily doing martial arts training now. Not sure if my body can take that, plus lifting anymore.

Going to give it a try though and get back into it soon. Middle aged version this time.

Interesting thing is, I'm about the same body weight as back then, just higher body fat % and much weaker.

Were I in residency again, I would probably use the same methods.

Sign up with a good 24 hour gym, close to home. Eat a good breakfast, lunch and dinner. Post and/or pre-work out meal, and small meal with casein, +/- some low glycemic carbs before bed.

For post-call days, sleep first (eat or drink protein/carbs before crashing), then go to the gym. The sleep is critical. Poor sleep, plus stress from residency, plus heavy lifting is likely to worsen your anxiety.

Stuck in the OR for 12 hours? Put your weight-gainer shake (pre-packaged or home-made) in the lounge and slam it between cases, or just before a really long case.

If you can't get to the gym 5-6 days per week, you can do 3 days per week (Chest/shoulders, back/biceps/forearms, legs/core) at higher volume/intensity. Again, get adequate sleep whenever you can.

Keep it simple. Eat, sleep, lift. The motivation is the limiting factor, more than anything else.

 

[bashwell]

Lots of great advice here. Anyone new to lifting I recommend a program like StrongLifts. It really helped me at least. I went from pudgy plebe to gladiator (kidding but getting there).

 

[OrthoBod]

Agreed. Absolutely great advices.
Thanks Disciple.

Admittingly its getting hard. I am almost finishing my intern year.

 

[OrthoBod]

I knew about Stronglifts, I had done it once before long time back. I gained good amount of strength but my body did not change much. I must be making a lot of mistakes.
No wonder I never had high opinion about it.

I read from the link and it sounds really tempting. It is very similar to Dr Brett Osborns workout (neurosurgeon - bodybuilder)
It will work well esp in residency.

What is the opinion of others about this program? Have you guys tried it? Does it fit well in a hectic schedule?
What are the drawbacks and pluses?

 

[teacher2md]

I've done Stronglifts, which was great for a beginner, but I think the 5x5 isn't enough volume to increase your size quickly. It's geared toward increasing strength.

I still do Bench press/dead lift/squat, but I've increased my volume so that I'm doing 60-90 reps per week for each body part. So instead of doing just 5x5 bench, I'll do 3x10 of flat bench and 3x10 of incline bench on my chest day.

I started seeing more growth in my biceps/triceps when I switched to lower weight and higher volume.

 

[OrthoBod]

You are right. I too noticed only gain in strength. And almost injuried my knee despite keeping a check of my form and posture

Is it then better to do stronglifts or incorporate these exercises into your workouts when you exercise that particular body part.
I feel what ever route you chose, destination is the same as long as you are committed.

I worked with 3 trainers. I had gained a lot of weight. 105 kg! Had clinical depression.
First guy (6 weeks) - theory was super high reps. I lost weight in 6 weeks but became very weak.
Second guy (8 weeks) - was all about king exercises, squats, bench press, deadlifts.. I gained strength but not much in terms of size.
Last guy (8 weeks) - Did not like the basic exercises, his theory, injuries are more with them esp back and knees. He used to do a tonne of compound and circuit workouts with machines and free weights.
I never took any supplements. Not even whey.

I finally lost from 105 to 78kg now. And I really want to progress. But residency is killing me. Exams, research, oncalls.. family.
I am still confused as to what I should stick with.

 

[MacMil]

You are right. I too noticed only gain in strength. And almost injuried my knee despite keeping a check of my form and posture

Is it then better to do stronglifts or incorporate these exercises into your workouts when you exercise that particular body part.
I feel what ever route you chose, destination is the same as long as you are committed.

I worked with 3 trainers. I had gained a lot of weight. 105 kg! Had clinical depression.
First guy (6 weeks) - theory was super high reps. I lost weight in 6 weeks but became very weak.
Second guy (8 weeks) - was all about king exercises, squats, bench press, deadlifts.. I gained strength but not much in terms of size.
Last guy (8 weeks) - Did not like the basic exercises, his theory, injuries are more with them esp back and knees. He used to do a tonne of compound and circuit workouts with machines and free weights.
I never took any supplements. Not even whey.

I finally lost from 105 to 78kg now. And I really want to progress. But residency is killing me. Exams, research, oncalls.. family.
I am still confused as to what I should stick with.

It's very well known that "king" of all strength training is a 5x5. If you want size you need to incorporate hypertrophy training as well. You would be well suited on a barbell routine that involves low, medium and high intensity days following a linear progression. There are plenty of 3 day full body workouts that are designed exactly like this and they are good as well. Putting the time in the gym is only part of the equation though. Adequate rest and proper nutrition are paramount. Counting macros will allow you to get to the next level faster than if you just "wing" it. A digital food scale is probably the best investment in this regard. "1tbsp" of peanut butter is quite deceptive when weighed in grams! Haha


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[DarkHorizon]

Great advice there from most of you.

I posted my story before so I am still in the journey. Newbie here.
I was wondering if I can post what I am doing at the moment and you experienced guys can critique it. Point out the mistakes for me.

PGY1 - Ortho.
Weight - 78 kg
% BF: Dont know
Mirror: I look average
Meals: All same! I cannot afford to cook with different stuff, no time =( I mass cook boiled chicken then marinate with spices, cut veges etc
So I end up with this box at the end of the day which I eat 4 times a day.
Chicken 80g, Palmful of mix veges (Broccoli, spinach etc), few almonds and walnuts, berries.

6.00 am - Meal 1 Above meal + 2 whole meal bread toasts.
11 am - Meal 2
Workout 2.30 - 3.30 (Lunch break)
5 pm - Meal 3
8 pm - Meal 4
If i get hungry - i just gobble veges at night.

I am not taking anything, not even protein shakes. I tried for a week, protein shakes, L carnitine, glut, Cr.. All this gives heavy diarrhea. Never used before.
This is what i did for the past 8 months and lost weight from 100 kgs down to 78

Split:
5 days a week. I am totally knocked down when I am oncall, I do a 2 hour cardio (mild jog/walk) on the post call day. So I work out 5 days a week.
Sat: Legs + 15 min cardio
Sun: Chest + 15 min cardio
Mon: Oncall
Tues: Post call (2 hour cardio)
Wed: Shoulders + 15 min cardio
Thurs:Back
Fri: Arms
Could be oncall twice a week. Then i get 4 days so i combine one day with the other
Gym could be anytime, bag in the car and which ever near by gym i can get hands on,.

So a complete newbie, dont understand much.
Goal: Weight loss for the moment
Ofcourse I want to get bigger, but focusing on gaining lean mass later.

Fellow Ortho resident. PGY4. 5'10,170 lbs. 9-10% BF.

Couple of things I have changed over the years which have worked to stay lean and save time and be more efficient.

1. High intensity cardio: don't have time to do hours of cardio anymore. I set the treadmill to 9.5 mph and go at it for 15-20 mins. About 350-400 cals burned and benefits of increased metabolism. Harder to recover from but def worth it, it has really helped me get and stay lean.

2. I am not the biggest guy and am more focused on lean/fit look and am content with my lean mass so, 3-4 exercises per muscle group between 4-8 reps. In my experience, retains muscle although I could probably change it up a bit for htpertrohpy. Biggest advantage- takes about 30-40 mins.

3. Cut carbs- this was the hardest thing as I got in my 30s. I am extremely carb sensitive. I try to limit myself to less than 100 grams a day, most days I achieve this goal, some days I am over it, but I never go atomic and hardly will go over 150 g/day. I think this has helped to stay lean.

4. Meal prep- being a senior resident now, I am on back up call and most sundays are off. Sunday is meal prep day for the week. Remember, failure to prepare is preparing to fail. 10 meals packed for the week, 2 for each day. I sneak in some protein shakes and protein bars most days to meet my macros.

It's doable, but takes a bit of dedication. I enjoy it honestly. I put on about 30 lbs in first 2 years of residency and my lipid profile was off the charts. However, since taking control of my health, my recent numbers are the best they have ever been. Another reason to keep at it.

 

[OrthoBod]

I think those were some gems right there.

Thanks DarkHorizon. Great advice, will definately follow.

 

[DrCommonSense]

It's very well known that "king" of all strength training is a 5x5. If you want size you need to incorporate hypertrophy training as well. You would be well suited on a barbell routine that involves low, medium and high intensity days following a linear progression. There are plenty of 3 day full body workouts that are designed exactly like this and they are good as well. Putting the time in the gym is only part of the equation though. Adequate rest and proper nutrition are paramount. Counting macros will allow you to get to the next level faster than if you just "wing" it. A digital food scale is probably the best investment in this regard. "1tbsp" of peanut butter is quite deceptive when weighed in grams! Haha


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

Cool story bro.

But the true "king" of hypertrophy is test

Learn from the mighty Jason Blaha on this subject:

 

[OrthoBod]

That really demotivated me.

 

[deleted162650]

That really demotivated me.

Just makes me want to try some gear.

 

[DrCommonSense]

That really demotivated me.

Its fact backed up even by that NEJM article showing guys taking 600mg of test grew far more muscle without working out than dudes who worked up hardcore multiple times a week.

 

[MacMil]

Cool story bro.

But the true "king" of hypertrophy is test

Learn from the mighty Jason Blaha on this subject:

Edit: I removed this reply because I truly believe you were being sarcastic especially by using Blaha to make a point as he has been a joke in the community for years.



Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[DrCommonSense]

Edit: I removed this reply because I truly believe you were being sarcastic especially by using Blaha to make a point as he has been a joke in the community for years.



Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

Lol I enjoy blaha.

Sure he has some issues that are obvious. However, he is quoting a medical study that proved this argument.


People also hate blaha because he calls out roiders who claim natty and sell bs supplements pretending they work. That's why they knock him mostly but he is accurate on that's stuff.

 

[MacMil]

Lol I enjoy blaha.

Sure he has some issues that are obvious. However, he is quoting a medical study that proved this argument.


People also hate blaha because he calls out roiders who claim natty and sell bs supplements pretending they work. That's why they knock him mostly but he is accurate on that's stuff.

I remember reading an article like the one you mentioned in the late 90's. I haven't looked if there are more recent ones but I would bet if there were then the results would be the same. That's neither here nor there as I have not, nor will I ever use it. Although Maybe I should reevaluate my decisions as I get into my older age haha!

I have actually been looking into Jim Stoppani's supplement line a bit more. Probably because I prefer the way he presents his material over blaha lol


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[DrCommonSense]

I remember reading an article like the one you mentioned in the late 90's. I haven't looked if there are more recent ones but I would bet if there were then the results would be the same. That's neither here nor there as I have not, nor will I ever use it. Although Maybe I should reevaluate my decisions as I get into my older age haha!

I have actually been looking into Jim Stoppani's supplement line a bit more. Probably because I prefer the way he presents his material over blaha lol


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

Here is another gem from Jason Blaha debating another youtube celebrity "junky" ward (BioS3) about if you can keep gains after coming off roids. Jerry Ward believes you can't keep your gains but Blaha believes you can keep a little:



I think I have to go with junky ward on this one. I dont think you can keep much steroid gains but hold a little if you remain on TRT.

Blaha is full of it on this one.

 

[OrthoBod]

Any websites or links to understand how these 'cycles' work and what is the post effect?
Scientific studies please.

 

[DrCommonSense]

Any websites or links to understand how these 'cycles' work and what is the post effect?
Scientific studies please.

MMS: Error

https://andersnedergaard.dk/en/kropblog/the-big-lie/

This guy summarizes alot of the newer information as well with charts form direct studies.

 

[OrthoBod]

Interesting.
Thanks for the links. This study is really detailed and I would say well written.
Id love to do a similar study perhaps.. =D and get it published

I have 2 questions for lifters here.
1. When do you actually get those horror side effects - atrophy of testicles etc that one keeps hearing? - this study went 6 times higher in testos and still had no side effects!
2. Can you actually keep the gains?

 

[DrCommonSense]

Interesting.
Thanks for the links. This study is really detailed and I would say well written.
Id love to do a similar study perhaps.. =D and get it published

I have 2 questions for lifters here.
1. When do you actually get those horror side effects - atrophy of testicles etc that one keeps hearing? - this study went 6 times higher in testos and still had no side effects!
2. Can you actually keep the gains?

1) bHCG can prevent testicular atrophy. AI is needed to stop estrogen side effects such as gyno. Major side effects are internal including cholesterol, hemoglobin, cardiomegaly, higher BP, liver toxicity, etc.
2) A little from each cycle but I dont think much without remaining on TRT. If you are doing it for many years, you might get permanent changes that will remain. Its like smoking, some people get away with it but alot don't

 

[OrthoBod]

I see.
Thanks

 

[GA8314]

Having done some low dose cycles in the past, 300 Test Cyp with 4 weeks of oxandrolone 25 mg/day + 250 EQ (very low dose by bro standards) and also 400 Test only/wk, I can say that of course they work for hypertrophy, and strength. I've never believed that a few "cycles" would be very detrimental to ones health, especially at reasonable doses such as Max 500 Test/wk.

However, many many guys will not report feeling optimal at those doses. Say what you will, but read this bloggers synopsis carefully. It has also been my experience, though my doses are different. More is NOT better unless you are STRICTLY speaking about muscle and athletic performance......

High normal is better than High UNLESS you have substantial amounts of chemical muscle to maintain (or to build).

Disclaimer: I don't agree with the Q10 day dosing that this blogger seems to adhere to but if you break it down to his "High Normal" dose it comes to about 175mg/week. But, it's important to know that his Q10 regimen of 250 mg is not, by most standards, an optimal dosing strategy.... (better to break it up to Q7 days and lessen the dose, or even twice per week for between 150 and 200 mg total Test dose per week....)

My Thoughts On Testosterone Replacement Therapy and Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HRT For Men Part 4)

 

[GA8314]

Interesting.
Thanks for the links. This study is really detailed and I would say well written.
Id love to do a similar study perhaps.. =D and get it published

I have 2 questions for lifters here.
1. When do you actually get those horror side effects - atrophy of testicles etc that one keeps hearing? - this study went 6 times higher in testos and still had no side effects!
2. Can you actually keep the gains?

I absolutely don't think you can keep the gains. But, everyone says different. I think if you transition to a reasonable TRT regimen then you may be able to prevent some loss, but a lot of the intracellular protein synthesis and thus intracellular water will decrease when you scale back the dose to something healthy. As for post cycle therapy, yes, you should do that if you are young.

My experience having self experimented is that it's really not worth it. I feel best a bit leaner and side effect management gets tricky. The amount of labs you would need to run to be "dialed in" on a cycle are time/resource prohibitive for most also.

That being said it's something which is highly variable from person to person. Also, not all agents are the same. Trenbolone is a dirty drug. But, by all accounts it works extremely well.

A little Test blast here and there probably isn't going to hurt you but you need to ask yourself why you are doing it and if it's really inline with your priorities and health goals.....

For me personally, it's not worth it. But, I got the bug out of my system as well given that I was reading The Underground Steroid Handbook in high school. Though, it wasn't until MUCH later that I actually experimented. It's always been intriguing to me, so I wanted to see for myself. Now, knowing, it's just not in line with my objectives for life or long term health.

Again, that said, I do not believe a healthy adult male will hurt himself from one or two moderate dose and duration "cycles" with agents with better safety profiles.......

 

[DrCommonSense]

Having done some low dose cycles in the past, 300 Test Cyp with 4 weeks of oxandrolone 25 mg/day + 250 EQ (very low dose by bro standards) and also 400 Test only/wk, I can say that of course they work for hypertrophy, and strength. I've never believed that a few "cycles" would be very detrimental to ones health, especially at reasonable doses such as Max 500 Test/wk.

However, many many guys will not report feeling optimal at those doses. Say what you will, but read this bloggers synopsis carefully. It has also been my experience, though my doses are different. More is NOT better unless you are STRICTLY speaking about muscle and athletic performance......

High normal is better than High UNLESS you have substantial amounts of chemical muscle to maintain (or to build).

Disclaimer: I don't agree with the Q10 day dosing that this blogger seems to adhere to but if you break it down to his "High Normal" dose it comes to about 175mg/week. But, it's important to know that his Q10 regimen of 250 mg is not, by most standards, an optimal dosing strategy.... (better to break it up to Q7 days and lessen the dose, or even twice per week for between 150 and 200 mg total Test dose per week....)

My Thoughts On Testosterone Replacement Therapy and Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HRT For Men Part 4)

400mg of test per week is FAR above normal.

Even 200mg/test per week is about 3 times the actually highest normal for a man.

 

[GA8314]

400mg of test per week is FAR above normal.

Even 200mg/test per week is about 3 times the actually highest normal for a man.

400/wk will get virtually every man way above the upper limit of "normal". Yes. No argument there. I was admitting that's a mini-cycle (still considered moderate or even LOW by the bro-heads these days...)

Now, where your TRT dose needs to be is based on lab results, and how you feel. Not an arbitrary dose.

 

[DrCommonSense]

400/wk will get virtually every man way above the upper limit of "normal". Yes. No argument there. I was admitting that's a mini-cycle (still considered moderate or even LOW by the bro-heads these days...)

Now, where your TRT dose needs to be is based on lab results, and how you feel. Not an arbitrary dose.

True I agree

Most dude bros start at 500mg/week minimum of test cyp as a "starter" cycle.

The level of muscle development is directly proportionate to dosing up to at least 600mg of test (NEJM article). I suspect there is a ceiling effect after hitting over 1 gram of test and that is why they "stack" other compounds onto test when they obtain dosage >1gm. The toxicity is proportionate to the amount of T used as well including BP, cholesterol, Hb, etc. levels.

Once they saturate their T receptors, adding in tren/deca/HGH/etc is helpful because it can potentiate effects through other anabolic receptors that aren't being hit by pure T. The oral steroids are VERY liver toxic but can give a much faster boost than just injectables and have a far shorter half life to get around urine testing.

I personally would never go on anything outside of regular T because of side effects of those other substances are very toxic (especially tren).

I think that people need to be very realistic about the level of musculature/leanness they can achieve naturally since the level of fake physiques is through the roof.

For instance, all men's "health" cover models are either on high dosages test/other leaning compounds and/or photoshopped. Same in the bodybuilding world, youtube "fitness" world, etc.

So most men who don't take these substances will feel inadequate when comparing to these "models or fitness gurus".

Also, even at 400mg/week of test, you will NEVER achieve the leanness/muscularity of these dudes who are at least double that dosage/taking tren/etc.

The "tren" look is becoming the NORM where there is EXTREME leanness while maintaining a high level of muscle. This look is NOT possible even on plain test because test will make you looked somewhat "bloated" even with AI.

So you really need to take tren/clen to get that look that we see so often.

 

[GA8314]

True I agree

Most dude bros start at 500mg/week minimum of test cyp as a "starter" cycle.

The level of muscle development is directly proportionate to dosing up to at least 600mg of test (NEJM article). I suspect there is a ceiling effect after hitting over 1 gram of test and that is why they "stack" other compounds onto test when they obtain dosage >1gm. The toxicity is proportionate to the amount of T used as well including BP, cholesterol, Hb, etc. levels.

Once they saturate their T receptors, adding in tren/deca/HGH/etc is helpful because it can potentiate effects through other anabolic receptors that aren't being hit by pure T. The oral steroids are VERY liver toxic but can give a much faster boost than just injectables and have a far shorter half life to get around urine testing.

I personally would never go on anything outside of regular T because of side effects of those other substances are very toxic (especially tren).

I think that people need to be very realistic about the level of musculature/leanness they can achieve naturally since the level of fake physiques is through the roof.

For instance, all men's "health" cover models are either on high dosages test/other leaning compounds and/or photoshopped. Same in the bodybuilding world, youtube "fitness" world, etc.

So most men who don't take these substances will feel inadequate when comparing to these "models or fitness gurus".

Also, even at 400mg/week of test, you will NEVER achieve the leanness/muscularity of these dudes who are at least double that dosage/taking tren/etc.

The "tren" look is becoming the NORM where there is EXTREME leanness while maintaining a high level of muscle. This look is NOT possible even on plain test because test will make you looked somewhat "bloated" even with AI.

So you really need to take tren/clen to get that look that we see so often.

Agreed on all points. Except maybe using other anabolics aside from T. Such as ones with a higher anabolic/androgenic ratio (EQ, Deca (though I think it's somewhat dirty, albeit well studied), and primobolan (if you could get the real deal). The goal being to limit androgenic SE's. But, basically, I agree with you. Tren is totally not worth it IMO.

The number of dudes with the obvious "Tren look" I see all over my gym is almost comical. One guy looks like a cartoon because his Traps and Shoulders are humongous while he has chicken legs. But, yeah, dudes are abusing these compounds in a big way these days.

 

[GA8314]

Interesting.
Thanks for the links. This study is really detailed and I would say well written.
Id love to do a similar study perhaps.. =D and get it published

I have 2 questions for lifters here.
1. When do you actually get those horror side effects - atrophy of testicles etc that one keeps hearing? - this study went 6 times higher in testos and still had no side effects!
2. Can you actually keep the gains?

You can prevent testicular atrophy with the LH analog HCG. Used for years, and at the current recommended doses (very low as compared to what they do for male factor infertility), appears safe over the long haul. At least as safe as any other "drug" on the market......

Again, I don't believe you can keep the gains if you "cycle" on and off. But, if you are older and blast and cruise you may be able to keep a good amount, but certainly not all, gains.

 

[OrthoBod]

Reading all the conversation here.
It is really tempting to try one cycle and see how my body responds xD