Better Gen Surg programs for PRS ultimately? Stony Brook vs. Drexel vs. Hofstra

[nutcrackers]

Hello,

I had posted the following in the Gen Surg page and received some valuable info there, but was also advised to post this here as well. Currently trying to make my ROL for Gen Surg, with the ultimate goal of going into PRS.
Perhaps someone who has done Gen Surg --> PRS would have some insight (or anyone in PRS)?
Thank you all so much for your help.

Hello all,
MS4 from the West Coast on the interview trail, trying to relocate to the Northeast. I was wondering if I could get your expert opinion on a few GS programs that I am debating between (Stony Brook vs. Hofstra vs. Drexel). I couldn't find any information specific to these programs on here.

At this point, I am interested in pursuing a competitive fellowship (thinking Plastics, maybe surg onc) and therefore, will definitely plan on doing the 2 years of dedicated research.

These programs all sounded pretty similar to me: they all have optional research years, they all have funding available in one form or another, they all allow residents to go elsewhere to do research (but the residents then have to come up with their own funding), none have in-house PRS or surg onc fellowship, but they all have matched some residents in those fellowships in the recent years. My “gut feeling” and “how I think I would fit in the program” are about the same for all those programs.

I find it very difficult to differentiate these programs from an academic/reputation standpoint. Since we all know “big names” and reputation do matter to some extent/a lot, I’m trying to find out which of these programs would give me the best shot at matching PRS or surg onc eventually. This would be the single most important factor for me to decide as I think I would be happy living in any of those places, and therefore I was hoping you guys can give me your opinion on these programs.

Thanks.

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[ram006]

Matched last year in PRS.

I'm not sure any of those options will clearly give you a leg up on the competition based upon name/reputation.

Last year, there was clearly a group A, but those applicants were from ivory tower type places (Harvard, Yale, Stanford, UCSF, Georgetown, etc.) and had done research at places like Penn, Hopkins, MD Anderson, MSK, etc.

None of your options really put you in that group. That's not meant to be an insult--I didn't train at an ivory tower for GS either-- it's just reality.

I would also add you should consider going away to do research if none of them have a home program.

So, from your list, I doubt any of them put you in the top tier based upon reputation alone. If I had to pick based on "prestige", I'd go to Stony I guess.

 

[nutcrackers]

Matched last year in PRS.

I'm not sure any of those options will clearly give you a leg up on the competition based upon name/reputation.

Last year, there was clearly a group A, but those applicants were from ivory tower type places (Harvard, Yale, Stanford, UCSF, Georgetown, etc.) and had done research at places like Penn, Hopkins, MD Anderson, MSK, etc.

None of your options really put you in that group. That's not meant to be an insult--I didn't train at an ivory tower for GS either-- it's just reality.

I would also add you should consider going away to do research if none of them have a home program.

So, from your list, I doubt any of them put you in the top tier based upon reputation alone. If I had to pick based on "prestige", I'd go to Stony I guess.

Thank you very much, @ram006, I really appreciate your valuable input.
No offense taken at all! I do realize these are not ivory tower GS programs. If I did have the scores to aim for such prestigious programs, I would probably have gone for integrated PRS instead.
Just a quick question regarding the research years. I would definitely try to go away for those. Do you recommend going for a prestigious program (whether it has a PRS-independent track or not, eg, MSK, Columbia, NYU, Mt Sinai etc), or a more mid-tier place with a home PRS-independent program?

I'm asking this because I know for away rotations as a MS4, I was always told NOT to do an away at super elite places such as MGH or UCSF (given my CV). The rationale being that I would likely not match there anyway and therefore I was recommended to aim for a more mid-tier away program instead, where I do stand a chance. Does this apply for PRS-research years away as well or is it just an opportunty to pump out papers and get very high quality LORs for extremely well-known staff?

And just a final question. Hofstra does have a PRS-integrated program, but no independent track. Should that affect my ranking decision at all?

Thank you very much!

 

[ram006]

Thank you very much, @ram006, I really appreciate your valuable input.
No offense taken at all! I do realize these are not ivory tower GS programs. If I did have the scores to aim for such prestigious programs, I would probably have gone for integrated PRS instead.
Just a quick question regarding the research years. I would definitely try to go away for those. Do you recommend going for a prestigious program (whether it has a PRS-independent track or not, eg, MSK, Columbia, NYU, Mt Sinai etc), or a more mid-tier place with a home PRS-independent program?

I'm asking this because I know for away rotations as a MS4, I was always told NOT to do an away at super elite places such as MGH or UCSF (given my CV). The rationale being that I would likely not match there anyway and therefore I was recommended to aim for a more mid-tier away program instead, where I do stand a chance. Does this apply for PRS-research years away as well or is it just an opportunty to pump out papers and get very high quality LORs for extremely well-known staff?

And just a final question. Hofstra does have a PRS-integrated program, but no independent track. Should that affect my ranking decision at all?

Thank you very much!

1. Doing research somewhere with swag is definitely worth it. In contrast to being an MS4 and spending 4 weeks there, you'll be dedicating a year or two to working hard for them. Overall, you'll be in a better position if you can get letters from well-known, national leaders in plastic surgery. It also increases the chances, though doesn't necessarily guarantee, they will give you real consideration for their own program.

If that isn't the case for whatever reason (i.e. they have residents from their own institute that are interested, your ABSITE scores, etc.) and assuming you work hard and are likable, you'll still have some strong letters.

If you're in NY, working with the MSK or NYU folks is certainly worth consideration.

2. Switching into an integrated position from GS is incredibly hard. I tried myself a few times and interviewed at a couple places. It seemed like the interview was a bit of a formality and the program already knew who they were taking. If you're at Hofstra, you might be able to establish yourself as "their guy/gal" in the event a position becomes available but I wouldn't go into GS expecting to be able to switch, though.

 

[nutcrackers]

Fantastic, thank you very much @ram006, I really appreciate your advice.

 

[droliver]

Switching into an integrated position from GS is incredibly hard. I tried myself a few times and interviewed at a couple places.

I don't think you can really switch at all anymore (without starting over completely) with the new integrated curriculums, as so few of the GS months now overlap with the PS-1 required rotations.

 

[ram006]

I don't think you can really switch at all anymore (without starting over completely) with the new integrated curriculums, as so few of the GS months now overlap with the PS-1 required rotations.

You can. You just can't progress from GS PGY3 to PRS PGY4. So you could take a PRS PGY2 after completing a GS PGY1 or GS 2 to PRS 3, GS 3 to PRS 3. I posted the ACGME link somewhere on here a while back. I interviewed for 3 integrated positions while a GS resident.

 

[ram006]

The ACAPS website actually has 4 current postings for integrated positions all of which outline acceptable pre-requisite gen surg training.
http://acaplasticsurgeons.org/jobs/

 

[caffeinemia]

You can. You just can't progress from GS PGY3 to PRS PGY4. So you could take a PRS PGY2 after completing a GS PGY1 or GS 2 to PRS 3, GS 3 to PRS 3. I posted the ACGME link somewhere on here a while back. I interviewed for 3 integrated positions while a GS resident.

Agree. No switchies after PGY3 year. I will say -- never say never -- cuz NYU did have two residents drop over the last couple years. They chose to fill internally. Hopkins also had a couple of people drop this last year. Supposedly top tier places in the plastic surgery training world ... but stuff like getting caught stealing fentanyl (or was it propofol?) and getting fired happens ay.

I'd tell you about the fellowship match success rate of some of these general surgery places as well as the quality of some of the northeast PRS programs -- but it hits a little too close to home for me... Honestly, names are great and all, but sometimes, they hide the very limited quality and quantity of the training.

I'll also tell you that the fellowship match is about who's willing to make phone calls for you and how likeable you are -- as long as you're modestly competent and scoring reasonably on the ABSITE. Personality and likeability matter so much in fellowship match. I've predicted so many people who didn't match this year because they were generally some of the most boring and/or awkward people everrrrr. Finally, New York plastic surgery has a very business-like mentality so lot of great and extremely famous/well connected surgeons are in private practice making that change on Park Ave or whatever. You'd be surprised, but you might run into them at some of these Dung Tower or Brick Tower tower institutions, simply because the surgicenter/main ORs offer them block time. That's where connections are made and first jobs or fellowship spots are obtained to some extent.