Bad Institutional Action

[Lawpy]

Yes. You don't get to damage people's property. These are adults, not 4 yr olds.

What if the food fights happened in middle school or high school? What about if a teenager robbed a store, avoided getting arrested, and successfully went to college with a clean record? Would they get slammed by adcoms for something that happened in high school or before?

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[aformerstudent]

Well lesson of this story is don't get caught I guess.

 

[leonardoson]

 

[deleted480308]

What if the food fights happened in middle school or high school? What about if a teenager robbed a store, avoided getting arrested, and successfully went to college with a clean record? Would they get slammed by adcoms for something that happened in high school or before?

I don't know how adcom would react to any of those things. But it's a winnowing down process and every little negative knocks you down in relation to everyone else. Life really does not have infinite do overs, some things have significant consequences, maybe this will maybe it won't

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Yes. You don't get to damage people's property. These are adults, not 4 yr olds.

I don't think damaging people's property is okay, but you also have to be proportional with your response. It's simply not something that warrants wasting the time of the police, jail and criminal courts. You can easily sue them for what they destroyed and get some type of additional compensation for your troubles. Criminalizing people over trivial things ends up hurting society.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

I have given no indication how I would handle OP's situation, nor does it matter.
It only matters that I give an accurate reflection of the outcome of similar IA's in our committee.

Why are you afraid of putting your 2 cents on it? Tell us how you, as an ADCOM, would personally handle it.

 

[deleted480308]

I don't think damaging people's property is okay, but you also have to be proportional with your response. It's simply not something that warrants wasting the time of the police, jail and criminal courts. You can easily sue them for what they destroyed and get some type of additional compensation for your troubles. Criminalizing people over trivial things ends up hurting society.

No. Damaging stuff that isn't yours hurts society.

Vandalism is a criminal act and should be

 

[Lawpy]

I don't know how adcom would react to any of those things. But it's a winnowing down process and every little negative knocks you down in relation to everyone else. Life really does not have infinite do overs, some things have significant consequences, maybe this will maybe it won't

yeah i meant in relation to whatever @Goro @gyngyn were saying since you largely agreed with them.

i don't know whether OP is in trouble because of the IA had happened in college rather than in high school/earlier? or even sometime between high school and college? i ask this because college IAs are weighed very heavily but similar crimes happening earlier on the education may be overlooked

a college student vandalizing property, robbing stores, plagiarizing essays would be slammed, no questions asked. but what about if the high school student did the same exact things and yet came out clean in college?

 

[ChymeofPassion]

Yes. You don't get to damage people's property. These are adults, not 4 yr olds.

Your profile picture fits you perfectly. The food fight "resulted only in a mess to cleanup". They weren't smashing windows and tables.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

No. Damaging stuff that isn't yours hurts society.

Vandalism is a criminal act and should be

You could use this same argument to say that not paying your credit card is stealing and stealing is a criminal act. However, we don't have debtor's prisons in America. Food loss is not the same as destroying someone's car windows or taking a bat to a TV.

 

[mwsapphire]

Where exactly have gyngyn and I stated that we would rule negatively against the OP? We're not making the news, merely reporting it.

Ad hominum attacks do not help your point, either, only weaken them. You will be judged by people for the rest of your clinical career as well. It's mine and gyngyn 's job to judge, too.

But do you ever go soft, on judgements though?
Like, if a situation like this presented itself ( somebody stole b/c they were poor and hungry) would you be the AdCom member to show sympathy?
( I know you claim to be hardass, but that's for interviews, not judgements. You said you see both sides of a story)

 

[gyngyn]

Why are you afraid of putting your 2 cents on it? Tell us how you, as an ADCOM, would personally handle it.

I would make a judgement based on the overall quality of the application, just like every other case.

 

[deleted480308]

yeah i meant in relation to whatever @Goro @gyngyn were saying since you largely agreed with them.

i don't know whether OP is in trouble because of the IA had happened in college rather than in high school/earlier? or even sometime between high school and college? i ask this because college IAs are weighed very heavily but similar crimes happening earlier on the education may be overlooked

a college student vandalizing property, robbing stores, plagiarizing essays would be slammed, no questions asked. but what about if the high school student did the same exact things and yet came out clean in college?

Society tends to forgive children faster than adults

 

[Lawpy]

Society tends to forgive children faster than adults

even if the crimes happened in gap years after high school and before college? say a high school dropout who did a lot of crime (and got away with it) and reinvented themselves for a fresh start in college. would adcoms/schools slam them for their shady past?

 

[deleted480308]

Your profile picture fits you perfectly. The food fight "resulted only in a mess to cleanup". They weren't smashing windows and tables.

You could use this same argument to say that not paying your credit card is stealing and stealing is a criminal act. However, we don't have debtor's prisons in America. Food loss is not the same as destroying someone's car windows or taking a bat to a TV.

Those staff that have to clean that up cost money. You are welcome to disagree with me but I still believe vandalism should be a crime

 

[deleted480308]

even if the crimes happened in gap years after high school and before college? say a high school dropout who did a lot of crime (and got away with it) and reinvented themselves for a fresh start in college. would adcoms/schools slam them for their shady past?

You'd have to ask adcoms how they behave

 

[RogueBanana]

But consequences generally should be proportionate to the action committed. I don't think taking a banana one is, at least, entitled to eat in a cafeteria should equate to a 5-10 year brake on one's application, which is a disproportionate consequence for a very minor moral transgression. maybe a stern talking to by an RA/official might have been more appropriate.

Had OP stolen some electronics, a more morally questionable action, I would support this more

I believe the OP's dining hall works similar to an al la carte or supermarket. It would be the same as taking food from a supermarket in your backpack.

 

[750335]

You'd have to ask adcoms how they behave

Heaven help the applications that make it to your desk if you ever become an adcom.

 

[DexterMorganSK]

This thread is being stretched for no reason.

OP made a mistake, he/she admits it, and the Adcoms here have sincerely given an answer to what other Adcoms will think if OP decides to apply and what OP should do to be a better applicant. In order to be fair to everyone, you have to leave your own emotions/sentiments/opinions/etc at home and not bring it to work. This is true for Physicians and Adcoms!

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Those staff that have to clean that up cost money. You are welcome to disagree with me but I still believe vandalism should be a crime

And that's why I suggest that suing them for the damages and what they wasted is a more reasonable response than to put them behind bars.

 

[deleted480308]

And that's why I suggest that suing them for the damages and what they wasted is a more reasonable response than to put them behind bars.

 

[Goro]

Of course! If OP had a good app, and did well in interview, I would go bat for him/her. Resilience and the road traveled are always good things.

I think the circumstances that the OP have gone through are very unfortunate. What people are arguing here is from an emotional viewpoint, not a practical one, as sb247, gyngyn and were trying to point out.

But do you ever go soft, on judgements though?
Like, if a situation like this presented itself ( somebody stole b/c they were poor and hungry) would you be the AdCom member to show sympathy?
( I know you claim to be hardass, but that's for interviews, not judgements. You said you see both sides of a story)

 

[Lawpy]

Of course! If OP had a good app, and did well in interview, I would go bat for him/her. Resilience and the road traveled are always good things.

I think the circumstances that the OP have gone through are very unfortunate. What people are arguing here is from an emotional viewpoint, not a practical one, as sb247, gyngyn and were trying to point out.

If these things were done in high school, would it be okay?

 

[mwsapphire]

But AdComs aren't humans? Aren't they supposed to take practicum and emotions into account?

 

[Goro]

If these things were done in high school, would it be okay?

I am far more lenient towards transgressions done by juveniles. The only time I've been on the fence is with crimes against persons, not property.

Also keep in mind that Adcoms tend to be lenient with college age alcohol violations and even DUIs. I have the belief that drunk driver kill families like mine, but I'll still forgive if the sin was done in late teens and not repeated. We were young and stupid once.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Yes

 

[deleted480308]

Yes

Then I would suggest not scheduling your next food fight on my property

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

I am far more lenient towards transgressions done by juveniles. The only time I've been on the fence is with crimes against persons, not property.

Also keep in mind that Adcoms tend to be lenient with college age alcohol violations and even DUIs. I have the belief that drunk driver kill families like mine, but I'll still forgive if the sin was done in late teens and not repeated. We were young and stupid once.

Just don't steal bananas though. That's just going too far.

 

[mwsapphire]

Just don't steal bananas though. That's just going too far.

I think he's saying he would be lenient. If he'd forgive a DUI, do you really think he's not soft enough to forgive stealing a damn banana?

 

[Turkishking]

OP could have gone to a food pantry instead of doing this.

 

[fball22]

even if the crimes happened in gap years after high school and before college? say a high school dropout who did a lot of crime (and got away with it) and reinvented themselves for a fresh start in college. would adcoms/schools slam them for their shady past?

If they got away with it they got away with it. How would they slam them if there is no record? Nothing to slam... unless for some reason you told them that you used to break the law in your application somewhere...?

 

[mwsapphire]

If they got away with it they got away with it. How would they slam them if there is no record? Nothing to slam... unless for some reason you told them that you used to break the law in your application somewhere...?

The point is it's freaking unfair to go nuts over something done when someone is 19 but forgive it if they were 17 or 18 ( potential 12th graders) vs an early college student. They should be treated the same.

 

[fball22]

The point is it's freaking unfair to go nuts over something done when someone is 19 but forgive it if they were 17 or 18 ( potential 12th graders) vs an early college student. They should be treated the same.

The question specifically asked what would happen if they "got away with it". So my point stands

 

[mwsapphire]

The question specifically asked what would happen if they "got away with it". So my point stands

It does still stand, but it's unfair that someone who happened to get away with it be luckier than a hungry kid stealing food happening to be caught. This kind of stuff makes me so mad

 

[deleted480308]

It does still stand, but it's unfair that someone who happened to get away with it be luckier than a hungry kid stealing food happening to be caught. This kind of stuff makes me so mad

The proper balancing of the scales there would be both thieves caught.....not more victims of theft without justice

 

[fball22]

It does still stand, but it's unfair that someone who happened to get away with it be luckier than a hungry kid stealing food happening to be caught. This kind of stuff makes me so mad

Good people go to jail and terrible people become presidents of countries. Life is most definitely not fair, it sucks, but life is also great. Just always try to find the silver lining (and make sure to watch the movie "silver linings playbook")

 

[SterlingMaloryArcher]

I agree college students shouldn't get criminal records over a food fight, I agree the OP deserves to be viewed in the context of the details of the incident, and I agree with @mwsapphire that it's dumb to go crazy over something a 19-year-old did vs a 17 or 18-year-old. I have parts of my transcript working against me because of early college, but that's just the way it is.

And I usually really enjoy @Goro posts and while I have to acknowledge that nobody is necessarily entitled to a career in medicine, it's pretty crappy how you can work much harder than most people in college for possibly nothing. I found that post very unsettling, but it is true. Eventually getting into medicine can be your top priority day in and day out for years but having a few bad grades or IA early on haunt you every single day to where you're wondering if it's even worth trying to persevere because in the end there's a good chance you'll just be written off anyways over something petty. Being a premed with a blemish on your record is a really hard life man.

 

[Lawpy]

I am far more lenient towards transgressions done by juveniles. The only time I've been on the fence is with crimes against persons, not property.

Got it and it fits well with @sb247 statement that society is much more willing to forgive juveniles than adults. Makes sense, thanks!

 

[mwsapphire]

Good people go to jail and terrible people become presidents of countries. Life is most definitely not fair, it sucks, but life is also great. Just always try to find the silver lining (and make sure to watch the movie "silver linings playbook")

I watched that movie when I was like 15 and I'm still cynical AF

 

[Goro]

The point is it's freaking unfair to go nuts over something done when someone is 19 but forgive it if they were 17 or 18 ( potential 12th graders) vs an early college student. They should be treated the same.

Life's not fair.

 

[Lawpy]

If they got away with it they got away with it. How would they slam them if there is no record? Nothing to slam... unless for some reason you told them that you used to break the law in your application somewhere...?

The point is it's freaking unfair to go nuts over something done when someone is 19 but forgive it if they were 17 or 18 ( potential 12th graders) vs an early college student. They should be treated the same.

The proper balancing of the scales there would be both thieves caught.....not more victims of theft without justice

I was trying to avoid complicating the situation with a criminal record added to it. There's no concept of IAs in high school. I think the analogy would be a high school student getting a suspension for stealing, vandalizing, plagiarizing etc. vs college student getting IAs

Given that juveniles are more likely to be forgiven than adults, adcoms/schools very likely won't care about high school suspensions.

 

[mwsapphire]

Life's not fair.

Do you really think a 17/18 y/o is significantly younger than a 19 y/o?????
I normally agree with you but that is just ridiculous.

 

[SterlingMaloryArcher]

In sociology, we learned that the average person owes at least 8 years of jail time and thousands of dollars in fines to the state. I really feel terrible for the OP. I would definitely take @LizzyM's advice on how to explain it just like it happened, no embellishing. I bet if you have a chance, it's that way. You have chances somewhere

 

[Goro]

Having been one myself, yes. But again, on the Adcom, we're more lenient with a drunk driver who was 18 or 19 than one who was 21. I'll also point out that when one hits 18, one is an adult.

Do you really think a 17/18 y/o is significantly younger than a 19 y/o?????
I normally agree with you but that is just ridiculous.

 

[Lawpy]

Do you really think a 17/18 y/o is significantly younger than a 19 y/o?????
I normally agree with you but that is just ridiculous.

I think no one cares about high school suspensions, detentions etc., but college IAs matter and have an impact. The demarcating line is not age but education level. A 16 y/o college student with IA would be treated more harshly than 16 y/o high school student with detentions

 

[deleted480308]

Do you really think a 17/18 y/o is significantly younger than a 19 y/o?????
I normally agree with you but that is just ridiculous.

Yes. Me a year into college had little resemblance to me in high school

 

[fball22]

I was trying to avoid complicating the situation with a criminal record added to it. There's no concept of IAs in high school. I think the analogy would be a high school student getting a suspension for stealing, vandalizing, plagiarizing etc. vs college student getting IAs

Given that juveniles are more likely to be forgiven than adults, adcoms/schools very likely won't care about high school suspensions.

I think the only way it could come up in your application at all though is if there was a criminal record. If you were expelled from 4 different high schools, but didn't have a criminal record, and still went to college, your good. Once you break that level and get into college, medical admissions will not know you sucked as a teenager.

 

[SterlingMaloryArcher]

We should make life as fair as possible for everyone when fairness is in our hands.

 

[mwsapphire]

Alright, alright, you guys are correct.
However, 18 y/o cutoff for adulthood is facking ridiculous. ( Not attacking you, personally, Dr.Goro)
21 to drink, 18 to be tried as an adult?

 

[Lawpy]

I think the only way it could come up in your application at all though is if there was a criminal record. If you were expelled from 4 different high schools, but didn't have a criminal record, and still went to college, your good. Once you break that level and get into college, medical admissions will not know you sucked as a teenager.

@leonardoson i think this addresses your situation well. i'm happy, because whatever happens in high school should definitely stay in high school.