Assessment of Realistic Options

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JamesGleaven

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So you graduated last year?
Did you fail to match or just not enter the match?

What are you doing currently? I know you don't want to say, but in and around medicine can mean many things from.

Also depends on what this professionalism thing was. Something relatively benign or worse?

Full disclosure, I had a professionalism issue (badmouthed someone online and the website complained to the school ISP etc) had it written up in my MSPE, repeated my second year of medical school, and didn't do so hot on Step 1 but was able to match. It was at a less than desirable program to be honest, but they took me in, (for which I am forever grateful) and I actually did well in residency and now fellowship.

The moral of the story is, as an AMG, unless you are a total screw up, you should be able to match somewhere. Main thing is applying broadly and not being too picky.
 
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I'm a current resident I would want you to pass step 3 before ranking you just because otherwise we could end up with someone who wouldn't be able to become a pgy2. It's very stressful for the residency when someone doesn't pass step 3 just because we know we could be down a resident.

Professionalism issues depends on what it is if it would impact ranking, our program director will usually say something vague along the lines of they had some trouble and it's all fine now or will say this one is more risky, how do you all feel about them? (We often have more knowledge of applicants than our pd does).(as in we may know more about them as a person, our pd usually knows the entire application inside and out).

I say this as someone who had problems early on during medschool and failed step 1 but passed everything else. They like the upwards trajectory. So a pass on step 3 would balance the 2 time cs.
 
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Anecdotal, I know two people who failed CS before the match this year. One was applying to rads and matched, one was applying to ob/gyn and didn't match but soaped into IM. Neither had a passing CS prior to getting a spot, and both had lower step 1 and 2 than you. I don't know why anybody would be worried about your step 3 as you did well on 1 and CK. I could see placed being concerned about your clinical skills given the CS and professionalism issue. I wonder if path or rads would be more favorable to you, but I'd be surprised if you couldn't match into IM somewhere.
 
So I'll weigh in here. Full disclosure -- this is just my opinion, I can't tell you how global it will be.

I don't think that Step 3 will be terribly helpful. As others have mentioned, you've shown that you can pass a MCQ knowledge exam. You haven't mentioned your shelf scores, but if those are OK also and reported on your MSPE, I don't think Step 3 will really help. Should you fail it, it will clearly hurt you dearly. So risk/gain is way out of balance, IMHO.

The real problem is going to be failing CS twice AND a professionalism issue. This suggests a major communication problem, or a "professionalism" problem which honestly usually translates into a personality disorder/trait. If you fail CS once, you might be able to argue it's a crappy test and you got tripped up. Failing it twice, and a professionalism issue, and the problem looks to be you.

Let's talk about this professionalism problem. Here's what you said in your first post:
A few years ago I got myself into hot water from a unprofessional conduct standpoint, ultimately needing some help from the Dean of Medicine to help get my "career" back on track. I am really no longer that person I used to be but hey they have to document these things and be "honest" on the MSPE n' "stuff"

Here's what you said in your last post:
FYI, the professionalism comments in the MSPE are somewhat vague. just mentions of unprofessional conduct, dismissal, then re-instatement by the Dean of Medicine and a subsequent probation period. Then it mention that I finished the terms of my probation upon graduation.

These are wildly different explanations of the problem. You were dismissed from medical school. This is a MAJOR problem. Describing it as "needing help from the Dean to get your career on track" and "They have to be 'honest' on the MSPE 'n stuff" is underselling it greatly. In fact, it's frightening.

So, here's the scoop from my view. There are many, many programs that will not consider you at all, no matter what you do. It's going to be hard to know which programs those are, but you should assume that most/all academic programs will reject you outright. For those that might consider you, much will boil down to "Have you truly changed". And that's the question. Have you truly changed?

Also, I'd worry that the professionalism issue you had and the reason you failed CS twice is the same issue. You haven't mentioned the actual issue here, and you can PM me more details if you wish (anything in PM is kept private, I won't post on a thread). I bet they are related.

Last, you mentioned "P's with some HP's sprinkled in". If that includes your clerkships, it depends what school you go to. Some schools, 60% of people get P. In others, 5% get P. If your clerkship performance places you in the bottom quartile but your Step 1 / CK / Shelf exams are OK, then your low scores are because of your behaviors, and again likely all related. If that's the case, you really haven't shown any improvement.

So, bottom line: Prove to me you have changed. You're going to need to be 150% honest about your professionalism problem in your PS, all the details, and show me that you're worth a risk. Even better, your MSPE should have all of the details from the admin's perspective, and their honest assessment of whether you have actually changed. I'm somewhat hoping that the professionalism issue is a substance problem -- it's easy to document, follow, and prove it has been addressed. Although that would need to be disclosed anyway, as a licensing issue. (not that I want anyone to actually have a substance problem)
 
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Also, there is no mention of rank on the MSPE with respect to performance for I don't think my school does that.
My understanding is that schools are required to report what percentage of students on each rotation get a P vs. HP vs. Honors, so they will get a rough estimate of your 'rank' in any given clerkship. Its not something that you see when you review your record, and is not the same as an overall class rank.
 
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My understanding is that schools are required to report what percentage of students on each rotation get a P vs. HP vs. Honors, so they will get a rough estimate of your 'rank' in any given clerkship. Its not something that you see when you review your record, and is not the same as an overall class rank.

My MSPE letter included a bar graph breakdown of grades given for each clerkship. I never saw that breakdown until I reviewed my letter for ERAS
 
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Full disclosure, I had a professionalism issue (badmouthed someone online and the website complained to the school ISP etc) had it written up in my MSPE, repeated my second year of medical school, and didn't do so hot on Step 1 but was able to match.

What??? You had to repeat a year of med school for badmouthing someone on an internet forum??
 
What??? You had to repeat a year of med school for badmouthing someone on an internet forum??

Nah, the repeat year was for failing a bunch of classes.

For bad mouthing someone, I had to do volunteer work and get a statement made on my MSPE. Love these medical school administrators
 
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Nah, the repeat year was for failing a bunch of classes.

For bad mouthing someone, I had to do volunteer work and get a statement made on my MSPE. Love these medical school administrators

Was this on Facebook or something with your real name? How did you get identified if not? Im fascinated by this
 
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Not facebook.
Identified via IP address as I was on the school wireless network.

That is bananas to me that they went through the trouble for some online trolling. You must have been a real ass :)
 
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You're missing the point. They won't call to get the details. Your app needs to have the details in it (with verification from your school) or they will just roundfile it. Vague isn't going to work. why would anyone go to that effort?
 
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You're missing the point. They won't call to get the details. Your app needs to have the details in it (with verification from your school) or they will just roundfile it. Vague isn't going to work. why would anyone go to that effort?

Agreed. You've got red flags all over the place. No one is going to go through the effort to learn more details. You've gotta just put your cards no the table and see if anyone takes a chance on you. Connections/phone calls might help.
 
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Hello Folks,

I've been lurking for 5yrs+ now But I thought I would make my joining official. I thought I kick my off my membership with a post where I would pose those that know more than I am a question...

Me: I am an AMG from a very old (Greater than 120 years old), mid-tier, US-M.D Granting school somewhere in the contiguous US. I earned P's with some HP's sprinkled in, failed No courses and
USMLE Step 1:240-245
USMLE Step 2CK: 235-240
YOG:2016
No Publications, no AOA (obviously from below), no research. Run of the Mill Medical Student.
Here are the two Kickers: I failed the USMLE CS...TWICE needing 3 attempts to pass it :( and,

A few years ago I got myself into hot water from a unprofessional conduct standpoint, ultimately needing some help from the Dean of Medicine to help get my "career" back on track. I am really no longer that person I used to be but hey they have to document these things and be "honest" on the MSPE n' "stuff"
Assume Arguendo my current Rec letters are "on par" with every other student applying.
What Can I match in realistically and what do I have to do? The Original goal was I.M. I am doing something now in and around medicine (i'd rather not say) but assume arguendo that I'm not doing anything. What SHOULD I be endeavoring to do on a day-to-day basis? Also a big one is Will Step 3 help me? I sorta feel that the Step 3 is an interns exam. Based on the PD Survery, it is hardly factored in when they decide to invite and rank. Moreover, In the small chance I fail it, 3 failed USMLE's would be hard to overcome. That is high risk and low reward. and It is expensive!

Also finally is medicine over? Should I perhaps be looking to do something else?

Please Comment with your earnest takes on the situation at hand. Thanks All!!

If you have student loans that qualify for PSLF, draft a cover letter. Apply to local state agencies or federal government relating to healthcare regulations. Examples are Public Employment Retirement System if they are self-funded. That means that are whole departments out there for insurance jobs that qualify for PSLF. If not, you can work for places that regulate the affordable care act market. That's one thing if residency apps don't work out and you want to start life soon.

Draft a cover letter stating you want to leave medicine for work life balance. Places that hire you will end up having a nice work environment. I ended up in a place where tons of people left six figure banking jobs, pharmacy benefit management, and computer programmers that were burnt out. I fit into the whole "overqualified and overeducated" work environment where people are there for work life while taking huge hit in compensation and prestige.
 
You're missing the point. They won't call to get the details. Your app needs to have the details in it (with verification from your school) or they will just roundfile it. Vague isn't going to work. why would anyone go to that effort?

exactly...you are going to have to make the effort for them to want to go through the effort...and you will need to show proof that you have changed and that the person who was dismissed is not the person you are now...you need to take ownership of the issues, and show how you have changed things and that whatever led to your issues will not occur again.
 
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I received 4 professional citations and then one * starred incident. The MSPE only has the 4 citations, and omits mention of the starred incidence Not because they being dishonest or trying to "help me" but because that offense was not official put down in the official citation mechanism. But no doubt It was a part of the foundation of the justification for getting kicked out.

So this IV season, I went on some IV's and told them unabridged truth. I personally don't think that went in my favor, especially when recanting a certain incident. It's hard to recant that stuff but I know it's gotta be done. I'll see if I can go in a re-tool my strategy for next time. I have no problem with truth telling folks. I don't mind meeting anyone of you sitting down for 2hrs+, looking you in the eye and telling you how I effed up and how/why I'm a better person and the steps I have taken.


all this, I also seriously empathize with felons and folks with records. The struggle they face is real. I'm not even a felon, neither do I have a criminal record but I sorta feel like one with my "record." I will make it my life's duty to hire folks with records or a little dirt on them because I can sorta see the regard that society has for folks with a little "dirt" on them and it's not high.

Did you come to work drunk? Beat a patient? I think the details matter, and since you have already put yourself out there, it sounds like the details are bad.
 
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Not to pile on, but you're doing a relatively poor job of describing the events here.

Your communication style here is rather rambling, non-specific and casual. It is understandable that you wish to be vague about the event and people do tend to be more casual on line than in person, but if you come off that way during interview it can hurt you. If your medical school is willing to help you, have them contact the programs where you did interview and see what their take on you was.

Finally, your refusal to accept help after your second failure doesn't bode well. Perhaps you really didn't need it but at that point I'd want to see you accept any and all offers of help because it was clear you were doing something wrong. Fortunately, it worked out well for you but it is the behavior of refusing the help that concerns me.
 
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I received 4 professional citations and then one * starred incident. The MSPE only has the 4 citations, and omits mention of the starred incidence Not because they being dishonest or trying to "help me" but because that offense was not official put down in the official citation mechanism. But no doubt It was a part of the foundation of the justification for getting kicked out.

So this IV season, I went on some IV's and told them unabridged truth. I personally don't think that went in my favor, especially when recanting a certain incident. It's hard to recant that stuff but I know it's gotta be done. I'll see if I can go in a re-tool my strategy for next time. I have no problem with truth telling folks. I don't mind meeting anyone of you sitting down for 2hrs+, looking you in the eye and telling you how I effed up and how/why I'm a better person and the steps I have taken.


all this, I also seriously empathize with felons and folks with records. The struggle they face is real. I'm not even a felon, neither do I have a criminal record but I sorta feel like one with my "record." I will make it my life's duty to hire folks with records or a little dirt on them because I can sorta see the regard that society has for folks with a little "dirt" on them and it's not high.

You need to find a way to succinctly say what you need and avoid rambling. You need to make sure they know you have learned and grown from this. I agree that it you interviewed somewhere and have a mentor that could call that place and get realistic feedback, that would be most helpful.
 
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I somewhat is my style to let people speculate BUT I do this because I want to make sure the Dean of Medicine is getting proper regard. That is to let you guys know that the Dean is not re-insisting nut jobs back to medical school
Here are Things I want to stress to all those who read this post that the following are not involved:
1) no felony convictions
2) no misdemeanor conviction (ie no DUI convictions) I have a clean record.
3) no substance abuse issues
4) no failed classes. Very important as no medical school worth its salt can a medical student pass on a clinical rotation with an adverse patient interaction so that is a clue there.
5) no accusations of sexual inappropriateness

I'm actually kinna paranoid about people finding out who I am hence my extreme vagueness on this anonymous forum but......
I will say my most egregious offense was me having strong words of disagreement for a resident that was giving me a hard time and abusing me and engaging in libel. I felt like I was standing up for myself. The matter was reported to the clerkship director then reported to the Promotion Committee. They obviously weren't happy with that.

Other than that, I run a squeaky clean, air tight operation.

Can you please be more vague so we can give more helpful advice?

Obviously it was more than just words of disagreement or it wouldn't have escalated to this degree.

I know you are concerned about people finding out your identity and that is fine but I can honestly say that I and probably most people on this forum could give two $hits about doing any extra detective work to find out who you are. I barely have enough time for my clinical duties, finishing research projects, studying for boards, spending time with my family, and screwing around on SDN to go through that trouble.
 
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...

I'm actually kinna paranoid about people finding out who I am hence my extreme vagueness on this anonymous forum but......
I will say my most egregious offense was me having strong words of disagreement for a resident that was giving me a hard time and abusing me and engaging in libel. I felt like I was standing up for myself. The matter was reported to the clerkship director then reported to the Promotion Committee. They obviously weren't happy with that.

Other than that, I run a squeaky clean, air tight operation.

seriously?! you really think that if you give more details that we are 1. actually be able to recognize who you are and 2. are gonna care?

unless it made the news or the internet (which then it was a way bigger deal than you are making it to be...) its not going to be that obvious..
 
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OP is understandably embarassed to some extent, and so it is understandable to want to be as vague as possible. In their own words, they feel like a criminal.

If we want OP to open up, let's not be so universally presumptive and judgemental.

No way in hell I'd open up to the types of accusatory and finger-pointing posts/inquisitions found in this thread.

OP - trust me on this one, any one of us could have been in your spot. Perhaps your only real mistake is getting caught. None of us are angels, although clearly some of us act like we are. If we dug deep enough into any one of our pasts', I am sure we would find skeletons in all closets.

Plus these days, you cant burp under your breath without being accused and convicted of a 'microaggression' against your fellow medical students anyways.
 
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I agree with light at end of tunnel.

This is probably not the right place to seek advice. We have got people out here who would cut your throat and put you down if they had half a chance to do so. Seek advice from people you know. Seek advice from a attending mentor. And if anything, seek counsel from an experienced lawyer and see what pointers they can suggest in your obviously very complicated situation.
 
I agree with light at end of tunnel.

This is probably not the right place to seek advice. We have got people out here who would cut your throat and put you down if they had half a chance to do so. Seek advice from people you know. Seek advice from a attending mentor. And if anything, seek counsel from an experienced lawyer and see what pointers they can suggest in your obviously very complicated situation.

Well, not sure Id go as far to say that this isnt the right place for advice - I think we really have some people who care and take the time to provide well thought out responses incorporating vast experience and expertise.

I just wish we could be more compassionate, if not symphathetic, to those who brave the shark filled waters of public forums by coming forward with their real life stories often during the lowest of lows.

Any one of us can become OP...any OP.
 
I agree with light at end of tunnel.

This is probably not the right place to seek advice. We have got people out here who would cut your throat and put you down if they had half a chance to do so. Seek advice from people you know. Seek advice from a attending mentor. And if anything, seek counsel from an experienced lawyer and see what pointers they can suggest in your obviously very complicated situation.
What do you think a lawyer can possibly offer the OP?
 
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Other than that, I run a squeaky clean, air tight operation.

So basically what you are saying, is that you have an attitude/anger problem and popped off too many times to the wrong person?

Did you just not show up to work?

I have worked with a lot of people with personality disorders, and it takes a special kind of hostility/d-baggery to get written up as many times as you apparently did.
 
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No, just got upset at one singular person.

I think you've already pointed out the problem. In isolation, you probably would have gotten away with most of those. When you develop a "pattern of behavior" the narrative writes itself. This points to a more central/personality issue. As aPD pointed out, this is probably harder to overcome than a substance abuse issue or other easily identifiable/verifiable problem.

Some of the stories are clearly one-sided and otherwise bizarre. The last one makes no sense to me. You were sick so you were acting erratic? Usually people associate spending too much time in the bathroom with cheating.

The other thing to say is that when you otherwise like someone/they do a good job, you let little things go. It seems like people really went out of their way to stick it to you, which may otherwise be an indicator of your overall demeanor.
 
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No, just got upset at one singular person.

Yeah I guess Details wouldn't hurt
Citation 1: A compilation citation from a first year course.Didn't show up to a site visit once, didn't write a test at the appropriate time. didn't format my paper correctly (.doc rather than .docx). wrote an "anonymous" very critical critique of their test question, then them.
Citation 2: Delinquent End of course evaluation
This is where it take the turn for the worst
*- I then had that previously mentioned broo-ha with the 4th year resident. I was an MS3 then. I was definitely raising my voice/yelling at the resident. Administrators were understandably not pleased
Citation 3: is one I am still VERY VERY TICKED off about. On the last day of this pedi neurology clerkship (as apart of of neuro), the CD calls me to talk to me. She tells me "it has been noticed that on occasion you talk to yourself in a very low voice. I'm like ok, soooo (talked to my doctor about it and she says that this is normal behavior)... She then proceeds with the insane "claim" that in the process of talking to yourself, on two occasions you "might" have used swear words under your breath while in patient rooms with patients. I told her straight up I didn't do that. She beings with the bs "why would your preceptors lie yada yada." I am ready to literally duel over this (a la Vice President Burr). Quite simply,I'm sorry my preceptor heard wrong, interpreted wrong iono BUT I didn't do that. Point. Blank. Period. End of Story.

At 3 citations, you gotta go to Student Promotion Committee. I'll never forget the Chair of the SPC interrupted me 3 times as she was "demanding answers" for the pedi thing. All 3 times I was basically like "I DO NOT KNOW what you are talking about." See in life however Perception Is Reality. I had already shown myself to be capable of wayward acts so it was easy to say "you did this" despite me ADAMANTLY insisting the contrary. More over the person making the claims were full longtime professors (ie claim made by professor then forwarded to the CD, another full professor). It was their word against mine and guess who loses things like that? the conclusion, I'm told that another citation could get me kicked out

4th Citation: I go to OSCE very very sick. I figure I couldn't miss it cause I didnt want another citation. I complete the OSCE but my behavior was erratic. I wasn't following instructions properly and then finally broke the camels back was I took to long to use the restroom. She wrote the citation to make sure I was "ok" wanted me to "talk to somebody" The 2nd meeting is where dismissal happened. Said I lacked the professionalism to be a medical student. upheld by review committee, Reversed by Dean of Medicine

There you have it.
Go!

Personally, I know maybe 15 people the above could have happened to, but not all of the stuff happening to any one individual person.

So you either have the ****tiest luck known to mankind, or you are an all around knucklehead.

None of this stuff is "serious," but it is sort of childish behavior really.
 
Perhaps it should be noted here that VP Burr is now "the villian in our history books." Essentially let his emotions run away with him and ruined his life and career because of it. Probably best not to consider his action in the infamous duel against his political opponent as a positive comparison to your situation.

Agreed with those above that note that pattern of behavior is the concern not the individual issues.
 
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Taking everything at face value:

What does "didn't write a test on time" mean?
What did you write in the evaluation that made them so mad?
Yelling at anyone is no longer acceptable behavior.
Muttering to yourself in front of a patient is not a normal physician behavior.
They think you cheated on the OSCE and so will most PDs
 
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-Dr. Bahnson, The fmr Progam Director and Chair of Urology at Ohio State University that was essentially a bigot, didn't believe in paternal leave, forced his female residents to take OCP and was know to KICK HIS EMPLOYEES (WUT) and made the life of one of his Resident hell for no reason because he could. He's currently practicing medicine.

WTF?????? Is he in jail or has be been 'promoted' as is the case with white or asian medical hierarchy? For real?

Dude, again, youre only real crime is getting caught. The world of medicine is plagued by what appear to be appropriate doctors.
 
You should delete this thread. That diatribe is unhelpful to your future goals.

How so? If Dr. Bahnson can force OCPs down peoples throats, certainly OP can tell us that Dr. Bahnson shoves OCPs down peoples throats.

Don't you think we ought to share this terrifying but true information with potential medical students that may one day find themselves forced into ingesting OCPs bc of their PD?

These things happen, far more than we like to admit. Wake up SDN.
 
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How so? If Dr. Bahnson can force OCPs down peoples throats, certainly OP can tell us that Dr. Bahnson shoves OCPs down peoples throats.

Don't you think we ought to share this terrifying but true information with potential medical students that may one day find themselves forced into ingesting OCPs bc of their PD?

Wilson v. Bahnson et al.pdf
Please read the 91 page statement made in US District Court. I'm literally not making this up.
 
How so? Really?

He's on the edge of losing his medical career because of a series of bizarre conflicts and events. Then he wrote a long screed about a variety of irrelevant and unrelated events. You can't see why that could reflect poorly on his judgement at a time when that is already in question?
 
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How so? Really?

He's on the edge of losing his medical career because of a series of bizarre conflicts and events. Then he wrote a long screed about a variety of irrelevant and unrelated events. You can't see why that could reflect poorly on his judgement at a time when that is already in question?

Hes venting dude, cut him some slack

plus, now i know i that if i ever intend to pursue further training in ohio, i may need a px for OCP - helpful stuff
 
Wilson v. Bahnson et al.pdf
Please read the 91 page statement made in US District Court. I'm literally not making this up.

Jesus wtf

This man still practices? I bet he is so 'distinguished.'

Must be nice to get away with assault, discrimination, abuse, etc yet OP is on verge of losing career bc of some mumbled words.
 
How so? I hope people are not gonna try an find me now. I'm actually kinna scared and might just get off this forum. The only point I made is that people more objectively deplorable than me currently in medicine. I don't see how this is not going to help me match? of course I'm not saying this to anybody. The only how I would voice this would be to my TIGHT FRIENDS and behind the veil of anonymity (ie this forum). I hope that's not a threat cause in that case I need to run away from here. My main goal is to match. I'm here for a coming together of ideas and minds and make a case on why I should be at least given a chance.



Straight up. If assaulting bigots can be current practicing doctors. and people with DUI's (endangering others lives) can be get into residency, please find a a good reason other than "character issues" and "I got caught" why I can't get hired. He's a state employee for that matter. Imagine, People like ME and my mother are FURNISHING HIS SALARY. yet I can't get a chance? These kinds of thought are in the deep recesses of my mind and I'm only here venting per the homie Light At End of Tunnel.
Just put yourself in my shoes folks,
Thanks Again!!


Stop being a panzy OP. Nobody cares who you are. Check out my past on SDN if you want. You are fine. You are well within your rights to post what you are posting.

Also, you arent done with training yet, so life still sucks for you.

You need to get your act together. Growing up a bit
wouldnt hurt either. Your situation isnt fair, but such is life in our shoes. Suck it up.

You wanna be a doctor or not? If so, read the advice in this thread provided by those that took the time to provide it and give it some thought, some serious thought.

Only you can save your career.
 
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