Army ROTC Educational Delay

[xQuailmanx]

Hello all. I have a few questions about going to medical school post-ROTC on an educational delay. Just to be clear, this is assuming no HPSP obligation. I've read every thread I could find on this topic, but a few points are still unclear to me. So you know, I am currently a junior on ROTC scholarship, preparing to begin my med school application process.

My first question is in regards to the possibility of being pulled out of medical school part-way through to do something that Uncle Sam has deemed more important. How likely is this to occur? I don't quite understand how this can happen once you have been granted an educational delay. Forgive me if I am way off base in thinking this could happen, but this thread (http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=358174) makes it sound as though such a thing is indeed possible. This prospect has me scared poopless, and is almost enough to make me consider taking the HPSP route, although my reading has led me to believe that HPSP would be a pretty bad idea given my circumstances.

I have read everything I can on HPSP in conjuction with an ROTC obligation, and I am pretty sure it is not for me. While I am as comfortable as one in my stage of life could be with the military lifestyle (army brat for my entire life and long history of family service), I don't like the idea of making a 20-or-so-year commitment to anything at this point in my life. However, if the ed delay route carries a high risk of being pulled out of medical school, I would much rather just suck it up and do HPSP.

I'm not asking anybody to make my choices for me, but any advice from people who have been down either path would be a god-send for me at this point, and I would greatly appreciate it.

Also, despite my research, I still don't exactly understand how the residency match works for somebody taking the ed delay route. Is it the same as HPSP, where you must apply to army programs and take one if matched, or do you have more say in the matter? I would assume this most likely depends on what specialty one is interested in. For example, at this point, I am quite interested in pathology, but I realize that this is bound to change once (rather, if) I am in medical school. If I were matched to an army residency, I would be forced to take it, correct?

Anyway, this is all I have for now. I'm sure some other questions will come up later. I apologize if this post sounds rambling or jumbled, but I feel really stressed right now. I'm taking the MCAT in two weeks, as well as finals, and am also preparing for LDACistan and working on my accessions packet . Thanks for your responses.

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[NavyFP]

As a rule, when the military gives you permission to defer service to pursue other training, they allow you to finish it. It is the rare exception to pull an individual out of that training without the individual requesting it (or failing out). When the military grants deferments it is with the recognition they need the end product and it goes against their best interest to prevent you from completing training.

That said, can they? Yes, but I would not lose sleep over the possibilty once you start med school.

 

[Jtun84]

I can't remember the exact wording of my ed-delay but long story short, you should worry more about AMCAS/AACOMAS/MCAT and the pain that is LDAC than this. You aren't going to get pulled out of med school to go play GI Joe. You will sign a contract stating you have x amount of years to complete med school and when you get done, you will do the mil match just like the HPSP guys. I mean, what would you do if they pulled you? You would still need BOLC in some branch to be able to deploy, and they have a glut of new officers every year. Most people wait a good minute after graduation to go to BOLC (especially combat arms) so it's not like they are hurting for line guys. Take the HPSP if you want it and are willing to incur the additional obligation, not because of the fear of an EXTREMELY unlikely scenario.
By the way, good luck at LDAC, it really blows. You're going to spend 4 weeks surrounded by people who are convinced they are Rambo incarnate and will personally punch bin Laden in the face when they get in the "fight" (You can spot them the first day by the skin tight Tapout shirts they wear.) Print off last years secondary questions and work on them in your free time, it makes the time go by faster.

 

[xQuailmanx]

Thank you both for responding. That is how I initially figured the ed delays would work, but I wasn't sure, given that most threads deal primarily with HPSP. I will be able to get a little more sleep tonight. I still need to read up on all of the details of HPSP and do some soul-searching before I make a final decision about it, but I still have a little time for that. Now back to my beloved MCAT.

PS I lol'd so hard at your description of LDAC, jtun84 .

 

[colbgw02]

I went the route you're describing - ROTC, then educational delay without HPSP - after coming to the same conclusion you have. Namely, that I didn't want to commit myself for the next 15+ years to the Army.

As others have stated, there is essentially no chance that you will be called to active duty. You will have to re-apply for your educational delay on an annual basis, but it used to be just a single, rather simple document. The Army folks in Falls Church still track you for some things, like to make sure you're passing your USMLE examinations. What's probably most frustrating is that there is no funding for you to do ADTs (audition rotations, BOLC), but you are still required to go through the Army match as if you were HPSP.

By the way, is LDAC the new name for what used to be called Advanced Camp? If so, what a completely useless experience that was/is. If it's only 4 weeks, then count yourself lucky. It used to be considerably longer.

 

[Mirror Form]

I don't quite understand how this can happen once you have been granted an educational delay.

It doesn't happen. However, technically you have to reapply for your ed-delay every year. As long as you reapply, you'll be granted an ed-delay every year for four years.

I have read everything I can on HPSP in conjuction with an ROTC obligation, and I am pretty sure it is not for me. While I am as comfortable as one in my stage of life could be with the military lifestyle (army brat for my entire life and long history of family service), I don't like the idea of making a 20-or-so-year commitment to anything at this point in my life. However, if the ed delay route carries a high risk of being pulled out of medical school, I would much rather just suck it up and do HPSP.

Definitely do not do HPSP if you already have an ROTC obligation. Even if you were 100% certain that you want to be career military, you still may come out finacially behind by taking the scholarship. This is for two reasons. You get extra pay while active duty (4+ years toward your time in service) by turning down the HPSP scholarship. And if you decide to stay active duty after your commitment is up, you can take the big 40K+ bonuses then.

Besides though, we dont' know what the military will be like 20 years from now, so it's not a great idea to basically lock yourself into 20 years.

Also, despite my research, I still don't exactly understand how the residency match works for somebody taking the ed delay route. Is it the same as HPSP, where you must apply to army programs and take one if matched, or do you have more say in the matter? I would assume this most likely depends on what specialty one is interested in. For example, at this point, I am quite interested in pathology, but I realize that this is bound to change once (rather, if) I am in medical school. If I were matched to an army residency, I would be forced to take it, correct?

It's the exact same as for HPSP candidates.

And don't do path unless you do decide to be career military. The job market sucks!

 

[xQuailmanx]

Thanks again for the responses, everybody.

Colbgw02: yeah, LDAC is what they call Advanced Camp now. Every year they are apparently making it shorter due to lack of funding or something.

Mirror Form: Thanks for the insight. That gives me a lot to mull over, although the decision seems fairly easy given what you've said.

So here's another question:

If you don't take HPSP and have an ROTC obligation, do you get any pay whatsoever while in school? Even though the ideas of an extra service obligation and possibility of less pay when I start practicing are a turn off to the idea of taking an HPSP scholarship, the thought of having some measure of financial security while in school is greatly appealing to me. I will possibly be getting married before I start med school (a whole 'nother can of worms, I know) and I don't know if I will be able to provide an acceptable standard of living without an assured source of income. In your opinion, is the pay increase coming in as an O3 with 4 years TIS enough to make up for the instability during one's school years? I realize this question is extremely subjective, but I want to make sure I can weigh both sides before I make a final decision. Also, for anybody who went ROTC/non-HPSP, what did you do to make ends meet while in school, and do you feel like the sacrifices you had to make while in school were ultimately worth it? Thanks again, everybody!

 

[Mirror Form]

Thanks again for the responses, everybody.

Colbgw02: yeah, LDAC is what they call Advanced Camp now. Every year they are apparently making it shorter due to lack of funding or something.

Mirror Form: Thanks for the insight. That gives me a lot to mull over, although the decision seems fairly easy given what you've said.

So here's another question:

If you don't take HPSP and have an ROTC obligation, do you get any pay whatsoever while in school? Even though the ideas of an extra service obligation and possibility of less pay when I start practicing are a turn off to the idea of taking an HPSP scholarship, the thought of having some measure of financial security while in school is greatly appealing to me. I will possibly be getting married before I start med school (a whole 'nother can of worms, I know) and I don't know if I will be able to provide an acceptable standard of living without an assured source of income. In your opinion, is the pay increase coming in as an O3 with 4 years TIS enough to make up for the instability during one's school years? I realize this question is extremely subjective, but I want to make sure I can weigh both sides before I make a final decision. Also, for anybody who went ROTC/non-HPSP, what did you do to make ends meet while in school, and do you feel like the sacrifices you had to make while in school were ultimately worth it? Thanks again, everybody!

The majority of medical students aren't on scholarship during med school. That's why we have loans with low (sub-inflation level) interest rates. Unlike many single med students, you're lucky b/c your wife can get a job and provide some additional income other than the student loans that most med students live just fine off of. You'll have a guaranteed well paying job that starts right after you graduate.

Besides, if your future wife has more than 2 brain cells, she should be f'ing thrilled that instead of getting locked into a 20 year military career, you're just going to be a bit poor for 4 years during medical school. Do you really think she'll be happier living halfway across the country from her family, only to have you get deployed for 12 months while there are small children at home?

 

[colbgw02]

If you don't take HPSP and have an ROTC obligation, do you get any pay whatsoever while in school? Even though the ideas of an extra service obligation and possibility of less pay when I start practicing are a turn off to the idea of taking an HPSP scholarship, the thought of having some measure of financial security while in school is greatly appealing to me. I will possibly be getting married before I start med school (a whole 'nother can of worms, I know) and I don't know if I will be able to provide an acceptable standard of living without an assured source of income. In your opinion, is the pay increase coming in as an O3 with 4 years TIS enough to make up for the instability during one's school years? I realize this question is extremely subjective, but I want to make sure I can weigh both sides before I make a final decision. Also, for anybody who went ROTC/non-HPSP, what did you do to make ends meet while in school, and do you feel like the sacrifices you had to make while in school were ultimately worth it? Thanks again, everybody!

Nope, no pay. You're on IRR, so except for your name on some roster somewhere, you don't really exist until the match rolls around.

Like most people, I took out loans. I know the landscape regarding medical school loans has changed since I last reconsolidated, but the loans to me are not a big deal. My interest rate is ridiculously low, so I'm paying them back as slowly as possible. Also, while in a Army residency, you're much better equipped to repay those loans than your civilian counterparts.

The extra money you get once you're on active duty is a nice add-on, but it really shouldn't play into your decision making. In my opinion, the only reason to take HPSP on top of ROTC is if you are 100% sure that you want to stay until retirement AND you are incredibly debt adverse. That's because the quicker you can fulfill your active duty obligation the better, even if you intend to stay until retirement. You can always re-up with the Army, and depending on your specialty, the specialty pay bonuses you get may equal or surpass the cost of HPSP. Of course, if there's even 0.00001% chance that you'll want to separate from the military before retirement, then turning down HPSP makes sense. Keep your options as open as possible.

 

[yoskram]

There is another issue to consider: if you do ROTC, then pay for medical school on your own, then take a military residency, you will incur additional service time.
The Army has this bizarre policy that military residency counts towards your HPSP obligation, but it also adds on a year. For HPSP doctors, this cancels itself out (unless your residency is longer than five years). But your military residency will NOT count towards ROTC obligation. Thus, each year of military residency adds on another year to your commitment, leaving you with the EXACT same length of obligation as HPSP.
The only way to really shorten your obligation time is to do a civilian residency after paying for medical school on your own. From what I understand, this is possible but a risky move as the Army may FORCE you to take a military residency when you make.
If this information is incorrect, I would love someone to correct me (sourcing their information), because I am in a similar situation to xQuailmanx.

 

[Mirror Form]

If this information is incorrect, I would love someone to correct me (sourcing their information), because I am in a similar situation to xQuailmanx.

Your residency is active duty time that counts toward any obligation. I've never heard that the military residency time only counts toward HPSP obligations only. USUHS graduates wouldn't be very happy with that. If there was some clause that made only USUHS & HPSP time count during residency that would be news to me (and it would really stink b/c a lot of people would have four years added onto their ADSO).

In your scenario, doing civilian residency is actually risky b/c when you finish your four years, you'll still owe an additional four years of IRR. Whereas, if you do a military residency, you'll have no additional IRR obligation.

 

[colbgw02]

There is another issue to consider: if you do ROTC, then pay for medical school on your own, then take a military residency, you will incur additional service time.
The Army has this bizarre policy that military residency counts towards your HPSP obligation, but it also adds on a year. For HPSP doctors, this cancels itself out (unless your residency is longer than five years). But your military residency will NOT count towards ROTC obligation. Thus, each year of military residency adds on another year to your commitment, leaving you with the EXACT same length of obligation as HPSP.
The only way to really shorten your obligation time is to do a civilian residency after paying for medical school on your own. From what I understand, this is possible but a risky move as the Army may FORCE you to take a military residency when you make.
If this information is incorrect, I would love someone to correct me (sourcing their information), because I am in a similar situation to xQuailmanx.

Yeah, this isn't correct. I'm not going to take the time to find a regulation to cite, but I can tell you from first-hand experience that I paid off my ROTC obligation while in an active duty residency. The four years that I now owe technically stem from the last four years of my 5-year residency. The only "proof" that I have is my ORB and orders, neither of which I'm going to link or post for obvious reasons, but they both list my ETS date as four years from now. If what you're saying were true, then my ETS date would be 8 years from now.

 

[BigRedDeal]

I'm a first year med student on Ed Delay; and up until I got a Muster Order last week, I had no idea I was considered IRR.

Now you're telling me I have to go through the military match? Man, I really missed the boat.

The HPSP scholarship was incredible tempting, especially with the 20K bonus. However, the hubby was absolutely against me taking it. I'd ask your SO/fiancee? about his/her opinion.

I had a good LDAC experience. My squad had many talented and down to earth cadets. The people in your squad will make all the difference.

 

[yoskram]

This actually takes a weight off of my shoulders, so thank you for the prompt replies. I guess my recruiter gave me false information.

I'm still interested in whether or not I can take a civilian residency or not (I want to stay in my home state which has no Army medical centers). If I did ed delay, never rotated at through an Army hospital, and only ranked the most competitive residencies, would it be possible to just not match? How would one go about getting out of the military residency obligation?

 

[colbgw02]

This actually takes a weight off of my shoulders, so thank you for the prompt replies. I guess my recruiter gave me false information.

I'm still interested in whether or not I can take a civilian residency or not (I want to stay in my home state which has no Army medical centers). If I did ed delay, never rotated at through an Army hospital, and only ranked the most competitive residencies, would it be possible to just not match? How would one go about getting out of the military residency obligation?

I don't think anyone on this forum would be surprised to hear that a recruiter gave you bad information. It seems to happen a lot.

In the Army, going for the civilian deferment for residency is an extremely dangerous game to play. I've posted more in depth on this in the past, if you'd like to search my posts, but - in a nutshell - you're much more likely to end up in GMO-land than you are to get your deferment.

 

[xQuailmanx]

This information has been tremendously helpful so far. Thanks to all who have contributed.

I've been reading around the forums some more and I've stumbled across a few threads talking about going the ARNG route after ROTC and then going to medical school, rather than going active. So far, this seems like an interesting possibility. Can anybody here comment on how this process works and/or their personal experiences with it? I plan on speaking with my ROTC command to see if they can point me towards some more information, but I would appreciate anybody's input here. Thanks again.

 

[colbgw02]

This information has been tremendously helpful so far. Thanks to all who have contributed.

I've been reading around the forums some more and I've stumbled across a few threads talking about going the ARNG route after ROTC and then going to medical school, rather than going active. So far, this seems like an interesting possibility. Can anybody here comment on how this process works and/or their personal experiences with it? I plan on speaking with my ROTC command to see if they can point me towards some more information, but I would appreciate anybody's input here. Thanks again.

Do you have an ROTC scholarship? Once upon a time, your scholarship contract had to specify a commission into the guard, but that could have changed. No harm in asking, I suppose.

 

[xQuailmanx]

I do have an ROTC scholarship, but I still haven't made the final decision whether or not I want to go active or guard. I don't have to make my final choice until the fall.

 

[BigRedDeal]

For clarification:
The 4 years I spend on IRR while in med school on Ed Delay will put me on the over 4 years for pay as an intern? So based on the 2011 pay charts, as an Intern, I'd be making $4951 basic pay a month (versus HPSP making $3711.9) ?


I hope I'm not derailing your thread, Quailman.

 

[colbgw02]

For clarification:
The 4 years I spend on IRR while in med school on Ed Delay will put me on the over 4 years for pay as an intern? So based on the 2011 pay charts, as an Intern, I'd be making $4951 basic pay a month (versus HPSP making $3711.9) ?


I hope I'm not derailing your thread, Quailman.

Your conclusion is correct, but it's not really the time on IRR that gets you there. If you pay for a degree that you subsequently use while on active duty, the Army gives you credit for the years spent getting that degree. The time does not count toward promotion or retirement, so, yes, you would come on active duty as an intern getting paid as an O-3 with 4 years.

 

[BigRedDeal]

Thanks!

More question. How does 4th year work for Ed Delayers? Can we rotate at army hospitals?

And what about the military match. I've found out how the civilian match works, but cant find much about military. Applications due in October, match is announced in December? When do we interview? And you get an automatic interview at every Army residency program with the specialty you intend to match in?

 

[colbgw02]

You will go through the Army match as if you were on HPSP. You'll receive a letter of instruction about the match, usually available on the MODS website. It's probably worth searching for the current LOI, since the year-to-year changes are typically minimal.

Every Army program should interview you, assuming you want to interview with them. I made the mistake of almost waiting too long to interview (September), so I suggest starting early. Unlike the civilian match, telephone interviews are a reasonable alternative, especially if the travel is prohibitive (Hawaii).

On paper, you cannot do audition rotations (ADTs) on the Army's dime, but apparently they have some back door funding for non-HPSP folks. It's worth asking the people in Falls Church about when the time comes. I wasn't told about this funding until after I had paid my own way to an away rotation, but it was worth it since I found out that I didn't want to do residency there.

 

[Mirror Form]

On paper, you cannot do audition rotations (ADTs) on the Army's dime, but apparently they have some back door funding for non-HPSP folks. It's worth asking the people in Falls Church about when the time comes. I wasn't told about this funding until after I had paid my own way to an away rotation, but it was worth it since I found out that I didn't want to do residency there.

I was able to do one ADT on the Army's dime at BAMC, but had to pay my own way on a second one.