Are there a lot of bullies in medical school?

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I don't think it's about being an adult; you're not less of an adult because you become intimidated/afraid/whatever. You're self-esteem issues or trouble being assertive don't vanish because you suddenly turn 18. I think that you should be able to assert your rights as an adult (and someone entering a profession that requires a certain amount of leadership), but that is ideal and does not always happen. America is awesome but there are a lot of people that are not aware of all their rights and privileges as human beings or US citizens. Also, even as aduts speaking up to someone can have certain consequences depending on who it is. Adults can be bullied, even doctors. & bullying goes well past the point of being a butthole imo.

Sorry if this got rambly.

You misunderstand. I'm not saying you are less of an adult if you are intimidated. I'm saying that as an adult, this kind of thing should not happen in a school setting, as there are consequences for that sort of behavior. You simply have to speak up and be ready to follow through. It does not make you less of a man or woman or a coward or anything to report that sort of behavior. It makes you a mature adult who handles things at an adult level.

I believe in the lowest level possible. If you feel someone is behaving that way, ask them why they feel the need to speak to you that way. If they get aggressive or seem indifferent, bump it up the chain. Bullies get away with that **** because no one calls them out.

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[TelemarketingEnigma]

Did someone flash the D Card at you?what was the most hurtful thing that ever happen to you?

what on earth did I just read

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Did someone flash the D Card at you?what was the most hurtful thing that ever happen to you?

5 minutes well spent

 

[mscandy]

This thread was so funny in the beginning, but got so serious later
Idk about bullying, but mean people are in every group, doing every occupation, and of any age. Going to med school does not make an exception.

 

[CUatthefinishline]

You misunderstand. I'm not saying you are less of an adult if you are intimidated. I'm saying that as an adult, this kind of thing should not happen in a school setting, as there are consequences for that sort of behavior. You simply have to speak up and be ready to follow through. It does not make you less of a man or woman or a coward or anything to report that sort of behavior. It makes you a mature adult who handles things at an adult level.

I believe in the lowest level possible. If you feel someone is behaving that way, ask them why they feel the need to speak to you that way. If they get aggressive or seem indifferent, bump it up the chain. Bullies get away with that **** because no one calls them out.

Ok. Thanks for clarifying. I'm just saying that sometimes it is not as easy as just speaking up depending on who is doing the bullying and where. I think that's where chains of command and HR departments can do the most good. I don't think you should have to ask someone why they're disrespecting you before you report them, especially if it's more than once or hostile.

However, I do agree with you on the fact that bullying, and other forms of professional/personal misconduct, are allowed to flourish primarily when people don't speak up. This should not happen in any setting, especially professional or academic. Stepping up and reporting is part of being an adult. Being vocal is key.

 

[libertyyne]

Ok. Thanks for clarifying. I'm just saying that sometimes it is not as easy as just speaking up depending on who is doing the bullying and where. I think that's where chains of command and HR departments can do the most good. I don't think you should have to ask someone why they're disrespecting you before you report them, especially if it's more than once or hostile.

However, I do agree with you on the fact that bullying, and other forms of professional/personal misconduct, are allowed to flourish primarily when people don't speak up. This should not happen in any setting, especially professional or academic. Stepping up and reporting is part of being an adult. Being vocal is key.

This is great in theory. However, when there is a large difference in hierarchy between the person committing the bullying and the person being bullied reporting becomes difficult and there is inertia on behalf of the organization for resolution. There was a thread about a sadistic urology program director who was left untouched for years even after displaying clear patterns of abuse that were reported. I have personally seen high level execs bully people and be immune to any repercussions even after reporting at a fortune 500 equivalent. Toxic workplaces, organizations, and programs are not especially rare.

There are risks of reporting as well , especially if the organization does not have safeguards. The bully in the position of power can selectively enforce obscure rules to ruin you professionally. Knowing when to take your licks and move on, unfortunately continues to be a norm and not a terrible strategy.

 

[CUatthefinishline]

This is great in theory. However, when there is a large difference in hierarchy between the person committing the bullying and the person being bullied reporting becomes difficult and there is inertia on behalf of the organization for resolution. There was a thread about a sadistic urology program director who was left untouched for years even after displaying clear patterns of abuse that were reported. I have personally seen high level execs bully people and be immune to any repercussions even after reporting at a fortune 500 equivalent. Toxic workplaces, organizations, and programs are not especially rare.

There are risks of reporting as well , especially if the organization does not have safeguards. The bully in the position of power can selectively enforce obscure rules to ruin you professionally. Knowing when to take your licks and move on, unfortunately continues to be a norm and not a terrible strategy.

This is kind of what I was alluding to earlier. I just also agree that things change when more people become more vocal (and/or supportive of others that are vocal). You definitely have to weigh those pros and cons of speaking up in reality, but ideally our system of reporting harassment (e.g. HR, supervisors, etc.) would operate as a sort of checks and balances thing. I realize that it does not always work that way in practice, hence continued bullying among working adults.

 

[CyrilFiggis]

Bullying is so 1990's. I prefer to take down others with relentless mocking, overt micro-aggressions and laughing at classmates interested in dumb residencies like psych or path.

 

[Peach Newport]

Ugh. I knew a small handful of bullies (mostly my high school friends) who went to medical school. The weird thing is that had ALOT in common.

-All were tall, attractive, muscular guys who played sports in high school.
-Lots of clinical experience, zero research, even in medical school.
-Attended "low-tier" usually state MD
-TOOK ON MAJOR LEADERSHIP ROLES
-Scored well but not fantastically on step 1 (best I knew was low 240s, lots of high 230s)
-and finally, they all matched viciously competitive surgical specialties (ENT, plastics, ortho) despite zero research and relatively low step 1, at major academic centers.

These guys were the serious type A guys who had pure animal charisma.

They're in residency now, and I can tell from their Facebook pages that they have no stopped bullying - they've only stepped it up.

 

[jcorpsmanMD]

You are following. They also gave presentations on the need to support the AOA, on not being fall down drunk in your social media, and about how amazing the ACA was and how all the doctors loved it.

I'll repeat, a presentation given does not make something legitimate and true.

You are welcome to disagree because we are adults and I'm not bullying you

I love u

 

[Alakazam123]

I don't think it's about being an adult; you're not less of an adult because you become intimidated/afraid/whatever. You're self-esteem issues or trouble being assertive don't vanish because you suddenly turn 18. I think that you should be able to assert your rights as an adult (and someone entering a profession that requires a certain amount of leadership), but that is ideal and does not always happen. America is awesome but there are a lot of people that are not aware of all their rights and privileges as human beings or US citizens. Also, even as aduts speaking up to someone can have certain consequences depending on who it is. Adults can be bullied, even doctors. & bullying goes well past the point of being a butthole imo.

Sorry if this got rambly.

Perhaps I'm out of my element, but with the limited experience I have in the academic world, I can say the following. Bullies or jerks often try to push you to the breaking point and make you snap. They are like online trolls, and they are motivated by your suffering, etc.

However, in most academic institutions there are strict rules against confrontations. If you get into a shouting match with someone or even just yell at them for being indecent, chances are you will be taken to task if it is brought to the authority figure.

As someone who's been bullied throughout school, and I mean actually bullied, not someone just "doing something once," I can say that bullies are very cunning and will try to get you when you are in a vulnerable position. They may whisper something in your ear, or make an off-hand comment and walk away. Meanwhile the victim often gets fed up with the treatment and snaps under pressure. Guess who gets caught? The victim, and not the bully. The bully is sly and knows how to fly under the radar and cause trouble. Unfortunately, victims of this bullying are not always well equipped to be just as subtle.

Just my 2 cents...

 

[RNtoMD87]

How can an adult be bullied? That is one of the dumbest things I’ve heard. In the adult world we call that harassment and it’s a crime

 

[jarednogeek]

You will always find jerks or bullies wherever you go. I’m sure most medical classes have jerks and bullies. The world can be a vicious place I suggest getting used to it. Let words bounce off of you and physical harm is against the law, so what can they do to you?

 

[PreMedMissteps]

Did someone flash the D Card at you?what was the most hurtful thing that ever happen to you?

Wut???

 

[getdown]

People need to learn how to deal with difficult personalities. Either you let it slid, just take or you confront them. In my experience dealing with difficult personality surgeons you just pick and choose your battles. If you know it won't make much of a difference in overall patient care just let them bitch and leave it alone. If I believe strongly against their stupid railings then I will tell it to their face and stand my ground. That way you don't look like a weakling that they can step all over any time they want.

 

[atomi]

How can an adult be bullied? That is one of the dumbest things I’ve heard. In the adult world we call that harassment and it’s a crime

Usually happens in positions of power. Like a boss who goes out of his way to make your life hell, gaslights you into believing you’re worthless, and makes sure you never get promoted.

Workplace bullying - Wikipedia

In Med school, the bullying I saw most often was in the form of a couple prominent type A kids who took it upon themselves to become the primary voice of the class and tried to direct all of the dialogue. They would try to to shame anybody who spoke up with a dissenting opinion or otherwise took the spotlight away from them.

There was one guy who was an a-hole to everyone outside of his small clique middle-school-style. (Tried to match ortho ended up in EM). But no, no actual violent bullying. It’s all words these days with adults.

 

[PathoTurnUp1865]

If you’re going to get upset/feel bullied when someone in your class doesn’t include you or talk bad about you, then you’re going to have a hard time in the hospital setting. Patients can be some of the meanest people on the planet and will tell you exactly how it is. Hope you don’t melt when they tell you you’re an idiot.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

They would try to to shame anybody who spoke up with a dissenting opinion or otherwise took the spotlight away from them.

It’s pretty easy to shut these people down. You just have to be an adult and call them out on their childish behavior. I’ve done it a number of times. If you seem calm and logical, and you point out exactly what they’re doing and why it makes them dinguses, they will usually leave you alone.

 

[RNtoMD87]

I mean since physical violence obviously isn't going to happen, just dish it right back. The best way to do this is to go deeper. I like to turn it back on them. "Why are you so worried about me? Are you obsessed with me? If I turn you on just say so, this isn't an effective way to tell someone you have feelings for them. Are you insecure today? Do you need to talk to someone?"

Just keep it focused on them. Its hilarious watching them keep trying to turn it back on you.

Or better yet, just ignore it. That has to be one of the worst things about being a licensed professional, you really have to bite your tongue and take a lot of crap you wouldn't otherwise. It amazes me how much BS I take outside of work these days.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I mean since physical violence obviously isn't going to happen, just dish it right back. The best way to do this is to go deeper. I like to turn it back on them. "Why are you so worried about me? Are you obsessed with me? If I turn you on just say so, this isn't an effective way to tell someone you have feelings for them. Are you insecure today? Do you need to talk to someone?"

Just keep it focused on them. Its hilarious watching them keep trying to turn it back on you.

Or better yet, just ignore it. That has to be one of the worst things about being a licensed professional, you really have to bite your tongue and take a lot of crap you wouldn't otherwise. It amazes me how much BS I take outside of work these days.

Lol one time in one of my classes, the prof offered us a choice of when to take an exam and a few of the more “macho” guys in the class tried to be verbally intimidating and imply they would get physical if we didn’t all vote the way they wanted us to.

Well needless to say we just voted however we wanted to because we’re all adults and they weren’t going to do ****. And they didn’t.

 

[RNtoMD87]

I mean really. I don't understand how people get bullied. PLEASE hit me. I will gladly take the hardest punch, because that lawsuit is going to be MASSIVE. I can only imagine the nightmares I'm going to have. Such mental anguish. It will surely be life changing. If I can't hit you back without putting my future in jeopardy, boy you're going to pay for it financially.