Anyone ever had an attending push them?

[LucidSplash]

You're certainly welcome to your opinion. Please do not dissuade other members from offering theirs, in essence spamming OP's thread. Let's not derail thread any further.

But what if my [perhaps our] opinion is that people shouldn't listen to your opinions because based on my [our] actual experience, the advice you are offering is poor and not rooted in any real knowledge of the situation(s) at hand? You suggest that all opinions are equal (an idea that I have disputed before) but in your world that should count right? That isn't spamming the thread, that's giving advice to the OP.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Light at end of tunnel]

But what if my [perhaps our] opinion is that people shouldn't listen to your opinions because based on my [our] actual experience, the advice you are offering is poor and not rooted in any real knowledge of the situation at hand? You suggest that all opinions are equal (an idea that I have disputed before) but in your world that should count right? That isn't spamming the thread, that's giving opinion/advice to the OP.

What's up with the editing?

I suggest members should be allowed to weigh everyone's opinion if they so choose to do, not just those who feel their's counts for more.

 

[LucidSplash]

What's up with the editing?

I suggest members should be allowed to weigh everyone's opinion if they so choose to do, not just those who feel their's counts for more.

Editing corrected. I tried to use brackets instead of parentheses by accident.

 

[LucidSplash]

Editing corrected. I tried to use brackets instead of parentheses by accident.

What's up with the editing?

I suggest members should be allowed to weigh everyone's opinion if they so choose to do, not just those who feel their's counts for more.

Right but my opinion is that your advice is bad and I'm letting the OP know. So that's an opinion that the OP should be allowed to know and weigh.

 

[Asteroid Body]

What's that saying about opinions again?

All you've done on this thread is provide poor advice with no relevant experience to back it up. It's pretty clear you just like to hear yourself talk at this point, and have given the OP no actual help.

Looking back, by far the best advice in any of this thread was to obtain a police report immediately after reporting to my boss. I didn't have to press charges and it didn't have to be investigated and no one at work would otherwise have been notified. All of the comments about state medical boards and HR complaints are appreciated too but it sounds like my HR department and state medical board are different than others. Happy to reveal more details in a pm if anyone is wanting additional perspective on this. As far as credentialing, it turns out they have not yet been contacted and the verification form was given to someone else (some credentialing boards apparently don't ask for reference letters).

At the beginning, light was the first person to recommend contacting the police... back when I almost didn't.

 

[Light at end of tunnel]

Right but my opinion is that your advice is bad and I'm letting the OP know. So that's an opinion that the OP should be allowed to know and weigh.

Certainly you can do that (and I would encourage the discussion from which I may benefit) but you shouldn't be telling me (or others) that we can't be giving it.

Sometimes, I disagree with others have to offer, but I don't yell at them in a thread. That's weird, and inconsistent with the spirit of SDN.

Babysitting member posts that we may feel is "poor advice" would be a full time Job in and of itself. Additionally, members are free to read and evaluate independently free of any particular member's biases.

 

[Light at end of tunnel]

Looking back, by far the best advice in any of this thread was to obtain a police report immediately after reporting to my boss. I didn't have to press charges and it didn't have to be investigated and no one at work would otherwise have been notified. All of the comments about state medical boards and HR complaints are appreciated too but it sounds like my HR department and state medical board are different than others. Happy to reveal more details in a pm if anyone is wanting additional perspective on this. As far as credentialing, it turns out they have not yet been contacted and the verification form was given to someone else (some credentialing boards apparently don't ask for reference letters).

At the beginning, light was the first person to recommend contacting the police... back when I almost didn't.

You see @LucidSplash @SouthernSurgeon , OP (for whom you have been speaking) doesn't seem to agree with you at all.

Again, I'm not interested in proving me right, or you wrong, but OP has spoken.

Why don't we let members decide what counts as good opinion going forward rather than forcing the issue??

 

[Smurfette]

Let's keep the thread germane to the OP's issues and take whatever debates you want to have on poster usefulness to PMs please.

 

[Light at end of tunnel]

Let's keep the thread germane to the OP's issues and take whatever debates you want to have on poster usefulness to PMs please.

Good god, thank you smurfette!

 

[12glaucoma34]

In summary, the licensing issue seems to have blown over as cooler heads prevailed. It was not without some serious effort and stress on my part. And an attending who generously went to bat for me.

However, I still have to get credentialed for my new job. There is one hothead which I unfortunately listed as a reference back when I never expected them to be so petty about this. Hoping it will work out and they'll just let it go.

As far as the out of control attending, I honestly don't know whatever happened to her but assume basically nothing. I am sure I have endured more punishment at this point than she has.

I'm happy things are trending in the right direction for you. In regards to the attending that pushed you, I bet she didn't suffer any repercussions for her actions. You, the victim, probably suffered a tremendous amount of emotion distress.

 

[Light at end of tunnel]

I'm happy things are trending in the right direction for you. In regards to the attending that pushed you, I bet she didn't suffer any repercussions for her actions. You, the victim, probably suffered a tremendous amount of emotion distress.

Dude, the OP basically got blamed for the assault himself! Can you believe that non sense?

 

[12glaucoma34]

Dude, the OP basically got blamed for the assault himself! Can you believe that non sense?

It is unbelievably believable. It is a common and often effective political defense mechanism. Do or say something so outrageously not true that it serves as a distraction and makes one question themselves, especially when it is the little person verse the big institution.

 

[12glaucoma34]

You see @LucidSplash @SouthernSurgeon , OP (for whom you have been speaking) doesn't seem to agree with you at all.

Again, I'm not interested in proving me right, or you wrong, but OP has spoken.

Why don't we let members decide what counts as good opinion going forward rather than forcing the issue??

Based on the outcome, getting a lawyer as you suggested early on was definitely the right decision. Good call.

 

[Light at end of tunnel]

It is unbelievably believable. It is a common and often effective political defense mechanism. Do or say something so outrageously not true that it serves as a distraction and makes one question themselves, especially when it is the little person verse the big institution.

Based on the outcome, getting a lawyer as you suggested early on was definitely the right decision. Good call.

Precisely. The hospitals and institutions can basically say and do what they want as long as things are kept hush hush and internal. The second a laywer gets involved and shines Light on the program and forces them to realize they are being watched, suddenly they play by the rules. Have you heard of the Hawthorne effect?

Malignant programs, like any other purveyer of evil, truly despise being found out.

That is the power of an attorney when introduced earlier on in the process, it shifts the scales back in your favor though never completely.

 

[Asteroid Body]

Precisely. The hospitals and institutions can basically say and do what they want as long as things are kept hush hush and internal. The second a laywer gets involved and shines Light on the program and forces them to realize they are being watched, suddenly they play by the rules. Have you heard of the Hawthorne effect?

Malignant programs, like any other purveyer of evil, truly despise being found out.

That is the power of an attorney when introduced earlier on in the process, it shifts the scales back in your favor though never completely.

I wouldn't necessarily come to those conclusions based on my experience. More accurately, someone else earlier on said something like "she will destroy you if you do not protect yourself." It later became clear that this got out of hand because she gathered allies/changed her story/justified her actions in the name of good patient care very early on. At one point, there was even some question as to whether I pushed her first.

I'm worried someone might misinterpret the tone of your post. Is there another experience you know of when a lawyer shined light on a situation? Was it a situation that escalated to a lawsuit?

 

[Light at end of tunnel]

I wouldn't necessarily come to those conclusions based on my experience. More accurately, someone else earlier on said something like "she will destroy you if you do not protect yourself." It later became clear that this got out of hand because she gathered allies/changed her story/justified her actions in the name of good patient care very early on. At one point, there was even some question as to whether I pushed her first.

I'm worried someone might misinterpret the tone of your post. Is there another experience you know of when a lawyer shined light on a situation? Was it a situation that escalated to a lawsuit?

There are other posts in the forum dating back 4-5 years (even longer) that you read through and can't really believe what you are reading. The Bahnson character, the recent issue witht the Ob/Gyn resident, etc. The neurosurgery resident fired after becoming infected with HIV during a procedure he was performing. The pscyh resident recently fired at Georgetown after being diagnosed with renal cancer. Too many to count.

But your story is like WTF is wrong with this world ya know? An absent PD who fell off the face of the earth...when you were assaulted. How low will they stoop to next, ya know?

In any event, sorry for the tone. I just worry that we rely far too much on hoping for the best in some situations that might be better served by assuming the worst. But again sorry for that - I'll try and watch that.

 

[Asteroid Body]

Based on the outcome, getting a lawyer as you suggested early on was definitely the right decision. Good call.

I didn't necessarily come to that conclusion... Contacting a lawyer to explain the situation, hiring a lawyer to negotiate with the hospital on your behalf, as in "lawyering up," and filing a lawsuit are all different approaches. I would say contacting a lawyer early on to learn about your options is a good idea, and a relatively small investment if your career is at stake.

 

[Light at end of tunnel]

I didn't necessarily come to that conclusion... Contacting a lawyer to explain the situation, hiring a lawyer to negotiate with the hospital on your behalf, as in "lawyering up," and filing a lawsuit are all different approaches. I would say contacting a lawyer early on to learn about your options is a good idea, and a relatively small investment if your career is at stake.

Having someone guide you, really, is what it boils down to. The best attorney is the one that doesn't ever have to provide a letter of representation/notice of lawsuit, and still get the job done. You definitely want to minimize any chance of being antagonistic or an aggressor - that will hurt you no matter what.

 

[Raryn]

The neurosurgery resident fired after becoming infected with HIV during a procedure he was performing.

I don't actually know of most of the cases you're referencing... but this one is from 1992.

If you had to go all the way back to when most current residents weren't even in grade school in order to get four examples, I don't know if I would say it's "too many to count."

 

[Light at end of tunnel]

I don't actually know of most of the cases you're referencing... but this one is from 1992.

If you had to go all the way back to when most current residents weren't even in grade school in order to get four examples, I don't know if I would say it's "too many to count."

Hey man, just saying. These are the cases discussed on SDN alone. And I'm willing to bet, that for every 1 story reported, 99 others remain silent because of fear.

What we should do, to help out prospective medical students/doctors, is come up with a way to provide a list of these programs (and their program directors/perpetrators) and post it somewhere and update it anonymously.

I really do think that knowledge provides the power to change these types of situations AND to avoid entering such a program unknowingly only to suddenly realize the biggest mistake of your life and career.

Thanks to the courage of folks like the instant OP, we are starting to shine light on many more of these types of places and people.

 

[Asteroid Body]

Hey man, just saying. These are the cases discussed on SDN alone. And I'm willing to bet, that for every 1 story reported, 99 others remain silent because of fear.

What we should do, to help out prospective medical students/doctors, is come up with a way to provide a list of these programs (and their program directors/perpetrators) and post it somewhere and update it anonymously.

I really do think that knowledge provides the power to change these types of situations.

Thanks to the courage of folks like the instant OP, we are starting to shine light on many more of these types of places and people.

I thought scutwork.com was supposed to be a forum for residents to review/criticize programs?

Although I met a resident at another program that posted a fair, slightly critical review of her program on that website. Her post was taken down from the site within a week and she was called into a meeting with the PD and Dean of Medicine, and was pressured to confess. I would assume a GME lawyer assisted the program in getting the removed.

 

[Raryn]

Hey man, just saying. These are the cases discussed on SDN alone.

There are currently ~28,000 individuals who start residency every year. Now, this number has gone up over time, but not by that much (it was 25,000 in 1993). Lets pretend that it has grown pretty linearly and that we have averaged 26.5k people starting every year for the last 25 years.

That's 662,500 residents who have started residency since the case you're citing. Of those more than half a million people, you can think of four cases that made national news about being unfairly fired. I can probably think of half a dozen more, or dig them up if I tried.

What percent is that?

 

[Light at end of tunnel]

I thought scutwork.com was supposed to be a forum for residents to review/criticize programs?

Although I met a resident at another program that posted a fair, slightly critical review of her program on that website. Her post was taken down from the site within a week and she was called into a meeting with the PD and Dean of Medicine, and was pressured to confess. I would assume a GME lawyer assisted the program in getting the removed.

Yea I don't know anything about scutworks. Again, anonymity is key. Absolute and real anonymity, 7 times removed so there is no way to trace it back to you.

 

[Light at end of tunnel]

There are currently ~28,000 individuals who start residency every year. Now, this number has gone up over time, but not by that much (it was 25,000 in 1993). Lets pretend that it has grown pretty linearly and that we have averaged 26.5k people starting every year for the last 25 years.

That's 662,500 residents who have started residency since the case you're citing. Of those more than half a million people, you can think of four cases that made national news about being unfairly fired. I can probably think of half a dozen more, or dig them up if I tried.

What percent is that?

Your point is well taken. Such cases are rare, and definitely not the norm.

 

[12glaucoma34]

I was being 100% serious, and a heads up. One of the things I have learned from my wise resident and attending colleagues in this forum is that residents who are unteachable get terminated.

Look, I've been on the receiving end of SS's scalpel plenty of times. And for most of them, I deserved it. He gives blunt advice and observations but he's spot on, and that's why I read every one of his posts. So take heed.

OMG. Enough brown-nosing already.

 

[12glaucoma34]

The overall theme of this whole thread extends beyond medicine. Just because @Light at end of tunnel may not be as far in his career doesn't discredit any of his statements. In such high stakes situations like this one, how could one go wrong with consulting an attorney? Seriously, at the most fundamental level, think about it. I got pushed and now the program is accusing me of wrong doing. That alone in itself should raise major red flags that something isn't right. If the person who pushed you isn't immediately disciplined or at least questioned, you should know something is off. Protect yourself first, because no one else will.

 

[12glaucoma34]

In regards to my probationary status, "We now hold that this provision violates the Free Speech Clause of the First Amendment. It offends a bedrock First Amendment principle: Speech may not be banned on the ground that it expresses ideas that offend."

I wish this were true on SDN, obviously this isn't true based on the probationary status. Others beware, there are unwritten rules in the TOS that may get you banned.

 

[Light at end of tunnel]

In regards to my probationary status, "We now hold that this provision violates the Free Speech Clause of the First Amendment. It offends a bedrock First Amendment principle: Speech may not be banned on the ground that it expresses ideas that offend."

I wish this were true on SDN, obviously this isn't true based on the probationary status. Others beware, there are unwritten rules in the TOS that may get you banned.

LOL why do you think I have that as my signature? I'm hoping it'l subliminally sink in!

Hang in there, your account is fresh and you gotta work through what I'm fairly sure is an obligatory hazing period if you post stuff that others find report-worthy early on. (BTW, smurfette asked not to derail from OP title, so let's respect that).

 

[Winged Scapula]

In regards to my probationary status, "We now hold that this provision violates the Free Speech Clause of the First Amendment. It offends a bedrock First Amendment principle: Speech may not be banned on the ground that it expresses ideas that offend."

I wish this were true on SDN, obviously this isn't true based on the probationary status. Others beware, there are unwritten rules in the TOS that may get you banned.

SDN is a privately held corporation and as such can decide what content is appropriate on it site. First Amendment free-speech is not relevant here or on any privately held website.

You are not on probation because you said something offensive but rather because you did it multiple times and ignored the multiple warnings about violations of the terms of service. Furthermore as has been clearly discussed in the past, topics about race and affirmative action are not appropriate for the premed forums; we have SPF for that.

 

[WisNeuro]

@Winged Scapula Can't SDN make people take a quiz on their understanding of the 1st Amendment before joining SDN? SDN is like a microcosm of people that apparently failed 9th grade Civics.

 

[Winged Scapula]

@Winged Scapula Can't SDN make people take a quiz on their understanding of the 1st Amendment before joining SDN? SDN is like a microcosm of people that apparently failed 9th grade Civics.

LOL..wouldn't that be great?

 

[Light at end of tunnel]

1. "not on probation because you said something offensive" and then you state "did it multiple times and ignored multiple warnings." Did I or didn't I? I received two warnings three minutes apart, so implying I continually ignored warnings is factually inaccurate. Furthermore, I didn't violate the written TOS.

2. My posts were not in the premed forums.

3. After carefully reviewing the TOS and SDN moderation rules, it is quite clear that SDN does not follow their own rules, this cited from website "Our membership encourages open discussion and debate, including opinions that may be unpopular" (source: How We Moderate the SDN Forums - Student Doctor Network). Actually, you often suppress this type of discussion and debate. And many of your users actively call those who disagree trolls, which is name calling and is a violation of TOS.
Forums Terms of Service & Website Online Service Agreement - Student Doctor Network

4. SDN doesn't explicitly state in the TOS anything in regards to the topics of speech that is acceptable or not acceptable. So sure, if you don't tolerate freedom of speech on here and will ban those with certain opinions or political perspectives, please state that in the TOS so members will know. Otherwise, you're creating the illusion that we are free to express ourselves which is clearly not true.

I share all of your frustration. Please keep in mind the key word of "discretionary" in the TOS which is all they need to say to do what they do; which ultimately means, as you suggest, apply the rules sometimes seemingly according to the whims of those making the decisions. They don't even have to justify that, but sometimes they do and that is nice. SDN is a private entity, and they can do that.

There have been entire threads dedicated to member frustration in this regard and several members left or attempted to leave recently because of the uneven application of TOS (for instance, you never see a verified member on probation). Finally, let's please respect Smurfette's request to not further derail OP's thread, you're only going to get yourself in more trouble by discussing this in Asteroid's thread. The last thing you want to do is provide them a real violation of TOS, which you would be doing here.

 

[12glaucoma34]

I appreciate @Asteroid Body returning to comment on her situation. Please continue to provide more details as you feel comfortable.

 

[evilbooyaa]

1. "not on probation because you said something offensive" and then you state "did it multiple times and ignored multiple warnings." Did I or didn't I? I received two warnings three minutes apart, so implying I continually ignored warnings is factually inaccurate. Furthermore, I didn't violate the written TOS.

2. My posts were not in the premed forums.

3. After carefully reviewing the TOS and SDN moderation rules, it is quite clear that SDN does not follow their own rules, this cited from website "Our membership encourages open discussion and debate, including opinions that may be unpopular" (source: How We Moderate the SDN Forums - Student Doctor Network). Actually, you often suppress this type of discussion and debate. And many of your users actively call those who disagree trolls, which is name calling and is a violation of TOS.
Forums Terms of Service & Website Online Service Agreement - Student Doctor Network

4. SDN doesn't explicitly state in the TOS anything in regards to the topics of speech that is acceptable or not acceptable. So sure, if you don't tolerate freedom of speech on here and will ban those with certain opinions or political perspectives, please state that in the TOS so members will know. Otherwise, you're creating the illusion that we are free to express ourselves which is clearly not true.

 

[rokshana]

Looking back, by far the best advice in any of this thread was to obtain a police report immediately after reporting to my boss. I didn't have to press charges and it didn't have to be investigated and no one at work would otherwise have been notified. All of the comments about state medical boards and HR complaints are appreciated too but it sounds like my HR department and state medical board are different than others. Happy to reveal more details in a pm if anyone is wanting additional perspective on this. As far as credentialing, it turns out they have not yet been contacted and the verification form was given to someone else (some credentialing boards apparently don't ask for reference letters).

At the beginning, light was the first person to recommend contacting the police... back when I almost didn't.

actually LevOphed was the first to give you the advice about filing a police report and the rationale on doing so. post # 8...light just said "police."

 

[Light at end of tunnel]

View attachment 222693

actually LevOphed was the first to give you the advice about filing a police report and the rationale on doing so. post # 8...light just said "police."

 

[rokshana]

View attachment 222696 View attachment 222693

hey just keeping things accurate...but i guess you liked taking credit for someone else's opinion?

 

[Light at end of tunnel]

hey just keeping things accurate...but i guess you liked taking credit for someone else's opinion?

It just sounds like you're grasping for straws. Honestly who cares what number X or Y was?

We are all adults here (I think).

 

[rokshana]

It just sounds like you're grasping for straws. Honestly who cares what number X or Y was?

We are all adults here (I think).

evidently you do...

 

[Light at end of tunnel]

evidently you do...

Huh? I still have no clue what you are talking about in terms of numbers or who said what. I just assumed asteroid body was being honest.

What matters is that asteroid body was able to get that report and protect himself...

 

[rokshana]

Huh? I still have no clue what you are talking about in terms of numbers or who said what. I just assumed asteroid body was being honest.

What matters is that asteroid body was able to get that report and protect himself...

uh huh...right...

 

[Smurfette]

Sigh. Instituting some user threadbans.
If thread derails again, it will be closed.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Looking back, by far the best advice in any of this thread was to obtain a police report immediately after reporting to my boss.

Since you didn't press charges / have any police investigation, what value was the police report? Was it simply a date/time stamped report of what happened, so you could use it as proof that you hadn't changed your story?

 

[Asteroid Body]

Since you didn't press charges / have any police investigation, what value was the police report? Was it simply a date/time stamped report of what happened, so you could use it as proof that you hadn't changed your story?

That's right. Remember I initially reported to the police and verbally to my supervisors. Months later, those supervisors provided a second hand version of the events, and the document read something like "gently guided" or minimized it to a "verbal scuffle."

However, it's illegal to file a false police report. In later transactions my version of the story was given much more weight.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Interesting. I'm pretty sure somewhere in this thread I mentioned that a police report wouldn't be helpful. But that's because I thought a police investigation wouldn't be helpful. I hadn't considered the point that an official report might be helpful in a non-police investigation.

 

[hallowmann]

That's right. Remember I initially reported to the police and verbally to my supervisors. Months later, those supervisors provided a second hand version of the events, and the document read something like "gently guided" or minimized it to a "verbal scuffle."

However, it's illegal to file a false police report. In later transactions my version of the story was given much more weight.

I'm really glad to hear that was helpful. I hope others in similar situations in the future will be able to learn from your experience.

In general, I suspect the best way to handle a situation like this is to file a police report (not necessarily with the intent of filing charges), contact HR, and get in touch with a lawyer for advice. If everything works out fine with the PD, etc. then in the end none of that other stuff should hurt you, but if things go bad at least you have some things on your side.

Good luck OP! I'd change the credentialing reference nonchalantly and just move past the whole horrible experience.

 

[Asteroid Body]

I'm really glad to hear that was helpful. I hope others in similar situations in the future will be able to learn from your experience.

In general, I suspect the best way to handle a situation like this is to file a police report (not necessarily with the intent of filing charges), contact HR, and get in touch with a lawyer for advice. If everything works out fine with the PD, etc. then in the end none of that other stuff should hurt you, but if things go bad at least you have some things on your side.

Good luck OP! I'd change the credentialing reference nonchalantly and just move past the whole horrible experience.

Clearly this thread has wandered awry.

I moved to the new city and unfortunately the day before I left, credentialing became complicated.

 

[ThoracicGuy]

Clearly this thread has wandered awry.

I moved to the new city and unfortunately the day before I left, credentialing became complicated.

All cleared up now, I hope.

 

[Asteroid Body]

All cleared up now, I hope.

No... Status is credentialing delayed.

I moved last week. Got a call from a credentialing coordinator at the new place that they needed more references because of a confusing story about how my request for that original (presumably unfriendly) contact refused/forwarded the form.

After formally providing new names for uninvolved folks, those references contacted me saying they got funny emails about how their credentialing applications were cancelled. I followed up a few days later with the credentialing coordinator who said "all is set, I did get an additional reference."

 

[ThoracicGuy]

No... Status is credentialing delayed.

I moved last week. Got a call from a credentialing coordinator at the new place that they needed more references because of a confusing story about how my request for that original (presumably unfriendly) contact refused/forwarded the form.

After formally providing new names for uninvolved folks, those references contacted me saying they got funny emails about how their credentialing applications were cancelled. I followed up a few days later with the credentialing coordinator who said "all is set, I did get an additional reference."

That seems very... weird.