Anyone ever had an attending push them?

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I don't see how the OP would be violating this NDA we're all presuming exists if she doesn't reveal any identifying information about the program.
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Someone else at OPs program knows about this and has read this thread. Name this program. They deserve shame from the medical community.
 
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Someone else spilling the beans could very easily blow back onto the OP. That's a very, very bad idea. Perhaps the thread should be closed to prevent that.

To the OP: I would sleep better at night knowing if this was resolved in such a way that you were completely vindicated and record cleared ("I'm in the clear"), that you're in the clear and someone is going to do something about the person involved ("I'm good and changes should happen to improve this program"), or whether they left some/much/all of the blame on you and are using that to keep you quiet until the end of training ("I'll happily graduate from this program and move on with my life"). Totally understand if not answering is your only safe option.

If you'd like the thread closed, post here or PM me.
 
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It would certainly be in the best interest of the OP not to name the program. Revenge / feeling a release / satifying curiosity is not nearly enough of a benefit to counteract the harm that could come if she names the program.

Unfortunately those considerations perpetuate the presence of bad actors in programs but there isn't much can be done about it. If it makes people feel better, most likely not if not all of the residents in this program know. They will warn the next generation. If this was really a one off for the attending, then it will die. If not, it will catch up to her.

I have a wild guess as to which program this is. I am most likely 100% wrong. But whats the fun of wild speculation if it isn't wild :)
 
For folks not in the know, "NDA" is "nondisclosure agreement". When you hear that a "confidential settlement" was achieved, an NDA was signed. That means, break it, and the settlement is void (and you have to give the money back). Totally unrelated, but, near the end of the movie "Spy Game", there is a scene about signing the NDA.

What irks me is that the OP is, presumably, new to these new, miserable experiences. As such, s/he is being bullied - as if his/her program is being SO magnanimous, that they would "let" him/her go with the NDA, when the OP is 100% in the right. In reality, they KNOW they are wrong, but they are, in fact, bullying the OP into accepting it. However, since the OP is "green" at this, s/he doesn't know how strong is his/her position. It is unfortunate that the OP didn't have a strong orator in his/her corner, such as an attorney, or, to be honest, someone like me, who would have leveled the playing field. It's confusing to be told you're wrong, when YOU are the one wronged.

This long screed is just my opinion. However, if the OP can just "get the hell out of Dodge", I'll count that as a "win".
 
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Apollyon said:
For folks not in the know, "NDA" is "nondisclosure agreement". When you hear that a "confidential settlement" was achieved, an NDA was signed. That means, break it, and the settlement is void (and you have to give the money back). Totally unrelated, but, near the end of the movie "Spy Game", there is a scene about signing the NDA.

What irks me is that the OP is, presumably, new to these new, miserable experiences. As such, s/he is being bullied - as if his/her program is being SO magnanimous, that they would "let" him/her go with the NDA, when the OP is 100% in the right. In reality, they KNOW they are wrong, but they are, in fact, bullying the OP into accepting it. However, since the OP is "green" at this, s/he doesn't know how strong is his/her position. It is unfortunate that the OP didn't have a strong orator in his/her corner, such as an attorney, to be honest, someone like me, who would have leveled the playing field. It's confusing to be told you're wrong, when YOU are the one wronged.

This long screed is just my opinion. However, if the OP can just "get the hell out of Dodge", I'll count that as a "win".
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Which is why having a lawyer from the get go keeping the bad guys in check is so crucial.

You make jokes about it, and I get that, but look at this poor bloke OP. Beat up, embarassed and ultimately forced to keep his mouth shut about it...

...OP will never be the same.

Only in Medical Education.
 
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Again, thanks for all your comments. It's been an exceptionally strange few weeks.

I've concluded that if an attending pushes you, it's best to be quiet about it. Seriously, just be quiet about it. You have no idea what's in store for you. Or, perhaps react as the first respondents in this thread would and go to police/security immediately.

Otherwise, your life turns into something like a movie where you play the conspiracy theorist and nobody believes you, but there's no happy ending as happens in Hollywood.

I haven't signed an NDA. But please let's not get nasty on this thread. I was hoping to have a discussion with residents of all specialties about how to handle workplace violence... the point was not to blast my program (although I do think they bleeping suck at the moment).
 
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I was assaulted by an Attending this year and will be formally filing a complaint with the ACGME once fellowship is over.

Good luck. I know how hard this is.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
 
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Asteroid Body said:
Again, thanks for all your comments. It's been an exceptionally strange few weeks.

I've concluded that if an attending pushes you, it's best to be quiet about it. Seriously, just be quiet about it. You have no idea what's in store for you. Or, perhaps react as the first respondents in this thread would and go to police/security immediately.

Otherwise, your life turns into something like a movie where you play the conspiracy theorist and nobody believes you, but there's no happy ending as happens in Hollywood.

I haven't signed an NDA. But please let's not get nasty on this thread. I was hoping to have a discussion with residents of all specialties about how to handle workplace violence... the point was not to blast my program (although I do think they bleeping suck at the moment).
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Dude, bummer. You weren't wrong. If, somehow, you got Stockholm Syndromed into taking that, I'm so sorry. That sounds like black letter bull****.
 
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Asteroid Body said:
Again, thanks for all your comments. It's been an exceptionally strange few weeks.

I've concluded that if an attending pushes you, it's best to be quiet about it. Seriously, just be quiet about it. You have no idea what's in store for you. Or, perhaps react as the first respondents in this thread would and go to police/security immediately.

Otherwise, your life turns into something like a movie where you play the conspiracy theorist and nobody believes you, but there's no happy ending as happens in Hollywood.

I haven't signed an NDA. But please let's not get nasty on this thread. I was hoping to have a discussion with residents of all specialties about how to handle workplace violence... the point was not to blast my program (although I do think they bleeping suck at the moment).
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I've been following this thread since the beginning but have no specific insight into your situation. That said, I think every step of the way you took a very reasonable option and I can't point out anything wrong. It's a ****ty situation to be in and I hope this hasn't delayed your graduation at all... I wish you the best with your last 11 days in the program.
 
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newbie04 said:
I'd be willing to do so in the near future (once fellowship is over).



Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
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Maybe we can both come out of the closet at the same time... would be interesting if we turned out to be in the same program.
Just kidding. Congrats on finishing the fellowship!
 
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Asteroid Body said:
Maybe we can both come out of the closet at the same time... would be interesting if we turned out to be in the same program.
Just kidding. Congrats on finishing the fellowship!
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The world would be a better and safer place if you do.

Much easier said than done, so lots of respect for you guys.
 
Asteroid Body said:
UPDATE: I am actually totally bewildered right now. I am sitting at home because I was just dismissed from clinical duties for the next few days by one of my supervisors. He said that he heard I told one of the trainees the story about the physical contact and that trainee reported back to him. As far as I was able to gather, that was his rationale for excusing me for the next few days was because I talked to another trainee about it. He is taking me off the rotation for this action. There had been no other complaints from that attending that week. So, apparently option #5, the subtle social game, has backfired. I have been disciplined.... I think.

I did just get off the phone with HR and filed a formal report with them. I have to say that I think it was a good idea... and possibly a good time for this, now that there is a reasonable question of retaliatory action and discipline for me. I was very clear with HR that my intent was to de-escalate the situation and I wanted an uneventful term for the rest of my employment. However, I seem to have little control over the outcome at this point and I worry there will be negative consequences for my career. They will ask you specifically want you want to see happen as a resolution. No, they aren't your friend but they also have a better sense of what is appropriate/legal administrative action than people who have career training as physicians. They had a more serious reaction to the allegations of physical contact (I also went into minimal details about harassment) and concluded that this should go above the chair to a non-physician department administrator.

I also acknowledged how I think my conduct might have contributed to the situation and asked the HR official whether or not my talking about the event with coworkers was considered inappopriate or unprofessional conduct. Her answer was no. So far she is the most reasonable person I've talked to in all this. But I will try to let you know how it goes...
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Completely predictable, and I told you way at the beginning of the thread that you were setting yourself up for non-sense like this.

Anyone ever had an attending push them?

> Be you, a resident
> Get assaulted by your attending
> Don't immediately file a police report or build a case using witness statements from people who saw it happen, and:
> Because no police report or witness corroboration, you have no protection against retaliation by the attending or program, and:
> Instead, just report assault to your own program and expect attending to be punished despite the fact that you have 0 proof or documentation
> Demand scheduling accommodations and stir the pot by telling everyone unproven story about how your were assaulted
> Be surprised when program wants to shut you up and has 0 fear of you because you have 0 evidence of any wrong-doing

The lesson here is that when something like this happens, you should immediately involve the police and hire a lawyer. Then document in-detail what happened preferably with written witness corroboration and have lawyer deal with HR for you. In a case like this your only advantage was right after the assault happened when you could solidify the facts of what happened with good documentation, police involvement, and witness corroboration. You really gave up all your power by throwing yourself at the mercy of the program, not realizing that the program is only interested in protecting itself (not you).
 
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Lev0phed said:
Completely predictable, and I told you way at the beginning of the thread that you were setting yourself up for non-sense like this.

Anyone ever had an attending push them?

> Be you, a resident
> Get assaulted by your attending
> Don't immediately protect yourself by filing police report or building a case using 3rd parties to protect yourself legally from retaliation
> Report assault to your own program and expect attending to be punished despite the fact that you have 0 proof or documentation
> Demand scheduling accommodations and stir the pot by telling everyone unproven story about how your were assaulted
> Be surprised when program wants to shut you up and has 0 fear of you because you have 0 evidence of any wrong-doing

The lesson here is that when something like this happens, you should immediately involve the police and hire a lawyer. Then document in-detail what happened preferably with written witness corroboration and have lawyer deal with HR for you. In a case like this your only advantage was right after the assault happened when you could solidify the facts of what happened with good documentation, police involvement, and witness corroboration. You really gave up all your power by throwing yourself at the mercy of the program, not realizing that the program is only interested in protecting itself (not you).
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Although I don't disagree with this completely, it really all hinges on whether there were any witnesses or not. If not, then a police report is still only their words against each other. I think the OP did report to the police. If there are witnesses, then a program can try to bury them, or change their stories -- in that case, if you actually get the police to investigate, it might be helpful. In many busy urban police departments, a claim that someone was pushed at work won't be investigated at all -- it's just not high enough priority.

Also, this assumes a program where the PD and GME don't take resident complaints seriously.
 
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aProgDirector said:
Although I don't disagree with this completely, it really all hinges on whether there were any witnesses or not. If not, then a police report is still only their words against each other. I think the OP did report to the police. If there are witnesses, then a program can try to bury them, or change their stories -- in that case, if you actually get the police to investigate, it might be helpful. In many busy urban police departments, a claim that someone was pushed at work won't be investigated at all -- it's just not high enough priority.

Also, this assumes a program where the PD and GME don't take resident complaints seriously.
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The OP stated that independent witnesses reported the incident to someone in the hospital staff without her prompting. If that is the case, then the OP certainly should have expected the program to take her complaint more seriously than they did.
 
It's been a long thread, and I had lost that detail. Looks like some of the anger outbursts were witnessed by others. Not 100% clear if the physical contact was witnessed, and whatever happened in the closed room was probably not witnessed by others.

All that said, I do agree with you. Assuming that the story is accurate, this is completely unacceptable. I would hope that the program would stand up and do what's right. The OP does have some options, if they decide to "do something" about the situation other than just trying to ride it out, assuming that someone is willing to corroborate their story. A lawsuit is an option, or a Title IX complaint. Both are long and painful.
 
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Hearing the outcome of this story would put this in top 10 of all threads ever. Naming the program would make this worthy of its own link on the categories page.

General residency issues
Internship
Anesthesiology
Dermatology
That story about ...
General surgery
Hematology
...
 
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Ray D. Ayshun said:
Hearing the outcome of this story would put this in top 10 of all threads ever. Naming the program would make this worthy of its own link on the categories page.

General residency issues
Internship
Anesthesiology
Dermatology
That story about ...
General surgery
Hematology
...
Click to expand...

Seriously, let's get back to medicine.
 
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At my institution the inappropriate and excessive yelling would be enough to get them a sit down with the chair with a required anger management course, written warning, etc. Witnessed assault would be the hard firing, as opposed to the soft firing, which is the "your appointment/contract isn't going to be renewed, so you should probably start looking for another job." There is zero tolerance for workplace violence, which this clearly was.
Document this and any future incidents in detail immediately after and complain in writing to HR and the head of GME. Don't be alone with them any more. The assault was way way over the line. They may think they're awesome and some kind of superstar, but EVERYONE is replaceable, and when you're a liability to the institution and an embarrassment, they'll find out how replaceable they are. I've seen it happen more than once to seemingly irreplaceable superstars, big big dogs. They're superstars somewhere else now. And, somehow, we all carried on just fine. Ask your program's coordinator to not put you on their team, keep your head down, grind it out, and don't look back.
If they touch you again, the appropriate response should be to immediately call out for a nurse or someone to come over as a witness, and then demand that they step away from you. Taking out your phone to video document the conversation will be effective as well. Your next stop if that happens is the head of GME followed by HR and their chairman, not some division chief, but the head of surgery, medicine, etc. No place is so backwards that they will allow a member of the faculty to assault trainees, or anyone.


--
Il Destriero
 
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At my program and my med school program, shouting/insult matches have been known to break out. The throwing of objects is not uncommon in either place. Many attendings from both programs have been sent off to what I call "Attending Charm School" multiple times, to the point where it's more a badge of honor and means of bonding than a punishment.

I say this not to insinuate that it's acceptable, but to point out that some specialties have created a culture where it's completely acceptable to have unaddressed psychiatric and behavior problems.

Homosexual men used to hide in the priesthood because it made being unmarried acceptable. People with personality disorders are often able to hide in medicine in the same way. Luckily, society is now able to see the former as a normal variant for the most part, but why there's any acceptance of the latter is beyond me.




Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
 
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Asteroid Body said:
Seriously, let's get back to medicine.
Click to expand...
I understand your desire not to draw attention to yourself, but I do hope that enough water will pass under the bridge that you'll be able to share the conclusion of this story with us (without identifying the program, of course.)
 
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Trismegistus4 said:
I understand your desire not to draw attention to yourself, but I do hope that enough water will pass under the bridge that you'll be able to share the conclusion of this story with us (without identifying the program, of course.)
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I have no idea what is happening to her. My program is going to take action against my medical license. I did end up getting a negative evaluation from her (and only her) from my last rotation.
 
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Asteroid Body said:
I have no idea what is happening to her. My program is going to take action against my medical license. I did end up getting a negative evaluation from her (and only her) from my last rotation.
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How could they possibly take action against your medical license? That's something for the state board to decide, not your program...

At least you're done there!
 
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:(:eek: Against you, the innocent resident? Appalling. I'm so sorry!
 
ThoracicGuy said:
How could they possibly take action against your medical license? That's something for the state board to decide, not your program...

Pretty much anyone can report anything to the medical board (patient, program, etc). Yes, the state board might have to decide.

Also a correction to my above post.. apparently it was all the attendings on my last rotation that gave negative-ish comments in aggregate, with hers being the most verbose paragraph. Weird because none of these complaints have ever come up before in my years of training.
Click to expand...
 
Asteroid Body said:
I have no idea what is happening to her. My program is going to take action against my medical license. I did end up getting a negative evaluation from her (and only her) from my last rotation.
Click to expand...

Wow that is unbelievable. How is that possible? You should report her, I think that if you have documentation of everything that has happened, it should not be difficult to prove retaliation which can in turn be a serious issues for your attending with the board.
I hope you got to graduate and are onto a position somwhere?
 
Look, if the OP was reported to the medical board, they will investigate, and that would include the police report that was filed and a chance to respond in writing to any allegations, in which the original incident would be documented anyhow. Should they find the attending's behavior problematic during the investigation, they will take action. It won't do any good at this point to report her, and may be viewed as petty or retaliatory.
 
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Youdbeinjail said:
At this point, is there a reason for the OP to not name this residency program? They are out for blood.
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Yes, there is a reason. It would be seen as a petty attempt by a disgruntled resident to "get back" at his program after being fired...this would only reinforce the idea that he should have been fired all along. Additionally, with the information, they could identify him as the OP and use that against him in any number of ways not the least of which is retaliation and libel. The program has "created" all the necessary paperwork to "prove" this is the case and if anything we have learned that this particular program will do whatever it takes to protect itself, including lying, fabricating evaluations, hiding information, twisting people's stories and most importantly ignoring the incident itself and reshaping it to be seen as a situation the OP deserved all along.

It's too late now. Tail between legs and walk away quietly.
 
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Youdbeinjail said:
So frustrating, but this is he way the real world works. I believe the delays in the OP creating her own paper trail allowed the program to "create" and "prove" their story. Any insights to the motivations of the program to notify the medical licensing board?
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Nails in the coffin. They're just bringing their case full circle and making sure "they are protecting the public from this dangerous doctor" who almost slipped through the cracks. In the process, they look like the heros and that is what the record is now built to reflect.

Another naiive resident bites the dust by hesitating to act...
 
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Smurfette said:
Look, if the OP was reported to the medical board, they will investigate, and that would include the police report that was filed and a chance to respond in writing to any allegations, in which the original incident would be documented anyhow. Should they find the attending's behavior problematic during the investigation, they will take action. It won't do any good at this point to report her, and may be viewed as petty or retaliatory.
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No chance that'l happen. OP's main issue was that he hesitated to act feeling a combination of fear and holding onto that bit of faith and trust we all want to have in the "system" and in his PD who quite frankly threw up his deuces and peaced when the proverbial **** hit the fan.

OP has been betrayed by who he felt had been entrusted to look out for him.

The paper trail now supports the hospital and program. The medical board will rubber stamp the already pre-determined decision bc the documentation requires that they do.

The board does not have an appallete function, only an investigation function.
 
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Light at end of tunnel said:
Yes, there is a reason. It would be seen as a petty attempt by a disgruntled resident to "get back" at his program after being fired...this would only reinforce the idea that he should have been fired all along. Additionally, with the information, they could identify him as the OP and use that against him in any number of ways not the least of which is retaliation and libel. The program has "created" all the necessary paperwork to "prove" this is the case and if anything we have learned that this particular program will do whatever it takes to protect itself, including lying, fabricating evaluations, hiding information, twisting people's stories and most importantly ignoring the incident itself and reshaping it to be seen as a situation the OP deserved all along.

It's too late now. Tail between legs and walk away quietly.
Click to expand...
uh, he wasn't fired...and he did file a police report and there are witnesses out there..
 
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Light at end of tunnel said:
Nails in the coffin. They're just bringing their case full circle and making sure "they are protecting the public from this dangerous doctor" who almost slipped through the cracks. In the process, they look like the heros and that is what the record is now built to reflect.

Another naiive resident bites the dust by hesitating to act...
Click to expand...

What are you talking about? Why are you acting like she's done for? what exactly are they reporting, that she was complaining about an attending? That she had some bad evals on one of her last rotations? There are literally attendings practicing out there who are reported for having sex with patients or DUI convictions. There are surgeons who have been reported multiple times for basically killing people before the medical board does anything about it.

Sure if they prevent her from getting an initial medical license in a state that's a problem. I doubt it'll come to that but then it's actually time to lawyer up.
 
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calvnandhobbs68 said:
What are you talking about? Why are you acting like she's done for? what exactly are they reporting, that she was complaining about an attending? That she had some bad evals on one of her last rotations? There are literally attendings practicing out there who are reported for having sex with patients or DUI convictions. There are surgeons who have been reported multiple times for basically killing people before the medical board does anything about it.

Sure if they prevent her from getting an initial medical license in a state that's a problem. I doubt it'll come to that but then it's actually time to lawyer up.
Click to expand...

That doesn't make me feel any better about this situation, but thanks for the positive encouragement I guess. You make adverse action sound like the dime a dozen norm.

Moreover, the OP is a Resident barely graduated with pending adverse action by the medical board...you think anyone is gonna jump to hire them?

Get real.
 
Light at end of tunnel said:
That doesn't make me feel any better about this situation, but thanks for the positive encouragement I guess. You make adverse action sound like the dime a dozen norm.

Moreover, the OP is a Resident barely graduated with pending adverse action by the medical board...you think anyone is gonna jump to hire them?

Get real.
Click to expand...

I'm glad we have the MD/PhD student to tell us how it is...
 
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