Answering Questions - Recent Neurosurgery Graduate

[kautionwirez]

I broke my arm when I was very young and I lost a good amount of rotation. One arm I can nearly rotate my palm parallel to upward to the sky, while my other arm is limited to about 35-40 degrees away from the y axis (y axis being the sky). It has limited my abilities from playing the violin, guitar bar chords, and holding a football or rugby ball securely.

Will this limit or make it more difficult to do surgical procedures? Should I try to get this fixed (went to a consult around 16 and they advised not to)?

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[xf3rn4nd3sx]

I broke my arm when I was very young and I lost a good amount of rotation. One arm I can nearly rotate my palm parallel to upward to the sky, while my other arm is limited to about 35-40 degrees away from the y axis (y axis being the sky). It has limited my abilities from playing the violin, guitar bar chords, and holding a football or rugby ball securely.

Will this limit or make it more difficult to do surgical procedures? Should I try to get this fixed (went to a consult around 16 and they advised not to)?

If I understood and pictured the description correctly, I can't think of any surgical procedures where you would need full range of motion with both arms. Your arms would typically be at a lower angle than 35-40 degrees away from the y axis. I would say you don't need to get it fixed right now unless you want to. Once you rotate through surgical specialties you'll probably have a better idea as to if you need to get it fixed or not.

 

[Grurik]

How do you and your colleagues value research?

Bench research > clinical research > epidemiological?

From what I understand, heavy bench research seems to be the "best" and epidemiological is more "this should not be called research". Even though solid epidemiological research can be very intellectual and not uncommonly published in NEJM/JAMA/Lancet..

Does interest outperform what type of research it is?

Thanks for your comments so far in the thread

 

[Smokemont]

Can you discuss moonlighting opportunities during residency to raise your salary over those short 7 years?

 

[drpapaya]

I will be 45 when I finish NS residency (if I choose that route). Have you met other newly grad neurosurgeons who are around that age and in private practice in a major city? If so, how are they doing? I love neurosurgery, but I don't know if it's worth the stress for my family, considering their desire to be in a major city on the west coast.

Also, I have a doctorate in dental medicine as well. (Which comes with the ability to estimate millimeters to the tenths, and also the ability to maintain a high level of manual dexterity while working in tight spaces with a mirror.) Will that help with matching into NS? Have you met other NS residents in their 40's?

Thanks.

 

[EtherBunny]

I will be 45 when I finish NS residency (if I choose that route). Have you met other newly grad neurosurgeons who are around that age and in private practice in a major city? If so, how are they doing? I love neurosurgery, but I don't know if it's worth the stress for my family, considering their desire to be in a major city on the west coast.

Also, I have a doctorate in dental medicine as well. (Which comes with the ability to estimate millimeters to the tenths, and also the ability to maintain a high level of manual dexterity while working in tight spaces with a mirror.) Will that help with matching into NS? Have you met other NS residents in their 40's?

Thanks.

Dude, why don't you just go into oral and maxillofacial surgery? Much shorter than neurosurgery. Income potential is roughly equivalent but the lifestyle in OMFS is much better. Broad range of surgical procedures in OMFS from the bread and butter extractions/implants/etc. to big flap cases to facial plastics--you tailor your practice to whatever interests you.

As a former neurosurgery resident, I think you're crazy to pursue neurosurgery at this stage of the game. It's a HUGE commitment of time and energy and it will be a big stress on your family. With a late start and your background in dentistry, it's not worth the sacrifice, in my honest opinion.

Also, why don't you want to stay in dentistry? That's a sweet field.

 

[drpapaya]

Dude, why don't you just go into oral and maxillofacial surgery? Much shorter than neurosurgery. Income potential is roughly equivalent but the lifestyle in OMFS is much better. Broad range of surgical procedures in OMFS from the bread and butter extractions/implants/etc. to big flap cases to facial plastics--you tailor your practice to whatever interests you.

As a former neurosurgery resident, I think you're crazy to pursue neurosurgery at this stage of the game. It's a HUGE commitment of time and energy and it will be a big stress on your family. With a late start and your background in dentistry, it's not worth the sacrifice, in my honest opinion.

Also, why don't you want to stay in dentistry? That's a sweet field.

To be honest, I found my passion-- NS. I couldn't see myself doing anything else.

 

[EtherBunny]

If that's the way you feel, then go for it. Just make sure that you know exactly what you're signing up for.

When I was a medical student, I thought I had found my passion as well--hence my decision to go into neurosurgery. I matched at an "elite" program (whatever that means) and I did well as a resident. Unfortunately my preconception of the practice of neurosurgery, based on my limited exposure to the field as a medical student, differed radically from actual practice. It's one thing to observe an emergent craniotomy overnight for an intracranial bleed, to observe a neurosurgery resident responding to urgent ER consults, or to observe a neurosurgery resident put in a ventriculostomy because the patient is herniating and watch the "blown" pupil shift back to normal. Observing those things can be exhilarating and inspiring, especially as a medical student when you're quite insulated from the negative aspects of medical practice and you have no significant responsibility in any given clinical situation.

However, being in the hot seat is a different ball game altogether. When your ass is on the line and you're absolutely exhausted because you're on the 14th ER consult of the night, your whole perspective changes. The stress can be unbearable at times, to the point that you become marginally homicidal. There were plenty of nights when I was on call for neurosurgery that I wanted to go postal on the ER and the f**&ng nurses driving me crazy with pages about patients on my service. Constantly dealing with high acuity situations can be very taxing physically, emotionally, and psychologically. The field can change you in ways that you never anticipated. In some cases, the field brings out the best in people. In other cases, it brings out the worst.

Just my $0.02. Know what you're getting into. As long as you're well informed and your family knows what you're signing up for, you should aim high and pursue your dream of becoming a neurosurgeon. Don't get me wrong: despite my negative experience with the field, neurosurgery is an amazing specialty. I never lost my interest in the field. To be completely honest with you, there's a still a small part of me that wishes I had I finished the program, despite the fact that I'm very happy in another specialty now (you can never be 100% certain about any decision you make in life). You can definitely be happy as a neurosurgeon, PROVIDED THAT YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TEMPERAMENT FOR THE FIELD. I can't emphasize this enough. If you have what it takes, it will be the best decision you've ever made (excluding your decision to marry your wife, etc.). If you don't have the right mindset for the specialty, you will be miserable and the relationships that matter to you will suffer. Plain and simple.

Good luck with your decision.

 

[neusu]

Dear EtherBunny

Why did you wait until your PGY-4 year to quit? At that point it was a cake walk.

To OP and anyone else.. : Medical school is a sheltered environment. Even on the subI for the students at my home institution they are "not allowed" to wake a patient prior to 05:30. They have to follow the duty hours. To be honest, they aren't trained well from their surgery rotation. They have no idea how to cut knots let alone tie, no concept of how to work a patient up, are just interested observers.

Do an away SubI. Do several. The experience will either kill you and you'll go back to neurology or anesthesia or you'll be convinced its for you.

Caveat: Many programs (such as etherbunny's former program) have cake call schedules and encourage people who want to do neurosurgery for prestige but don't realize that it's a slog.

 

[EtherBunny]

PGY-4 year? What the hell are you talking about? I think you have me confused with someone else, dude. Nobody quits during research--it's basically an extended vacation.

 

[xf3rn4nd3sx]

Sorry, I've been rather busy and haven't been able to give this thread as much attention. I'm glad residents are stepping up to help continue the Q&A.

How do you and your colleagues value research?

Bench research > clinical research > epidemiological?

From what I understand, heavy bench research seems to be the "best" and epidemiological is more "this should not be called research". Even though solid epidemiological research can be very intellectual and not uncommonly published in NEJM/JAMA/Lancet..

Does interest outperform what type of research it is?

Thanks for your comments so far in the thread

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by whether my colleagues and I value research, but in our setting we don't usually perform bench research. If you are asking from a student perspective (looking to get into a good medical school or residency), then bench research is usually very good to do. Passion in a research field of interest is important, but it depends.

Can you discuss moonlighting opportunities during residency to raise your salary over those short 7 years?

It varies from program to program, but you often have the opportunity to moonlight, especially during certain years. However, generally programs will add in-house moonlight hours to your 80 hours average per week maximum, so just be aware. It's something that you should find out about specific programs you are considering, but you can typically raise your salary a decent amount.

I will be 45 when I finish NS residency (if I choose that route). Have you met other newly grad neurosurgeons who are around that age and in private practice in a major city? If so, how are they doing? I love neurosurgery, but I don't know if it's worth the stress for my family, considering their desire to be in a major city on the west coast.

Also, I have a doctorate in dental medicine as well. (Which comes with the ability to estimate millimeters to the tenths, and also the ability to maintain a high level of manual dexterity while working in tight spaces with a mirror.) Will that help with matching into NS? Have you met other NS residents in their 40's?

Thanks.

A few neurosurgeons I work with are in that age group and plan to work for at least 15-20 more years, so I would say although a little late, 45 is not too late to start. It will be a significant lifestyle change for your family, so make sure that they fully understand that you will have less leisure time during your residency years. It isn't as bad as many make it out to be, as you will have usually at least one full day off per week and at least one full weekend off per month. Regarding the additional stress on your family, it's definitely important to make sure your family is on board and supportive of your decision. If they would like to stay on the west coast, then consider applying to residencies near locations they like. Happiness (and family happiness) is very important, perhaps more so than relative prestige of a residency. After residency, neurosurgery is one of several specialties that can almost always pick the area they want to live in. There are plenty of neurosurgery jobs on the west coast, many in nice suburbs of major cities like LA.

The doctorate in dental medicine may help you as it shows you are very capable and come from a unique situation. Make sure that other components of your application are also strong. I have met NS residents in their 40s, but I haven't really stayed in close contact. I'm sure they're fine though. If you love what you're doing and prioritize your family life, you'll do just fine.

To be honest, I found my passion-- NS. I couldn't see myself doing anything else.

If NS is your passion and you can't see yourself doing anything else, then by all means do NS. Make sure your family is on board, be sure of your decision, and go for it.

 

[kautionwirez]

How important is it to honor classes for first year? I would like to land in a residency in CA (SF/LA/SD) preferably. My school is not ranked in terms of US News and the grading is H/HP/P/F, no curve.

Right now, I'm getting into the groove of studying but it really takes a lot of my time to learn the minutae, getting +90/100 on my practice tests/mock practicals.

 

[copes]

How important is it to honor classes for first year? I would like to land in a residency in CA (SF/LA/SD) preferably. My school is not ranked in terms of US News and the grading is H/HP/P/F, no curve.

Right now, I'm getting into the groove of studying but it really takes a lot of my time to learn the minutae, getting +90/100 on my practice tests/mock practicals.

I'm not going into neurosurgery but "don't worry about grades the first 2 years" was bad advice for me. The guy who told me that matched into dermatology, so he was probably acing everything anyway. Now that I'm applying for residency applications I'm starting to realize that everything matters. Class rank is definitely a factor in residency apps. Are third year grades >>>>> 1st and 2nd year grades? Yes of course. But unless you are really smart, you can't just decide to honor everything 1 year on a whim. So I think it's better to try your best with everything along the way. If anything, I would learn anatomy and physiology especially during 1st year, because those topics come up randomly on the step 1 and there won't be much time to review those topics.

BTW if you want to match back in Cali for neurosurg you'll have to be a rockstar.

 

[rigid]

Silly question incoming!

How long does it take normally to lift a bone flap when doing a craniotomy? Also how long and how do you put it back?

 

[FirstAndFinal]

Not neurosurgery specific but how important are undergrad GPAs once you're applying to residency programs? Is it basically irrelevant and they just care that you went to a good undergrad and finish at the top of your class at a good medical school?

Also, do gap years between undergrad and medical school matter at that point?

 

[xf3rn4nd3sx]

Silly question incoming!

How long does it take normally to lift a bone flap when doing a craniotomy? Also how long and how do you put it back?

Hmmmmmmm not too long for just the bone flap. The entire craniotomy is usually a couple hours, but depends on the complexity of the case. Putting it back takes slightly longer, but again it's rather short. Basically you initially peel back the skin and cut out this bone flap. When you're finished you fit the piece back like a puzzle piece using plates and screws. Removing/reattaching the bone flap isn't really very difficult relative to the rest of the procedure.

Not neurosurgery specific but how important are undergrad GPAs once you're applying to residency programs? Is it basically irrelevant and they just care that you went to a good undergrad and finish at the top of your class at a good medical school?

Also, do gap years between undergrad and medical school matter at that point?

I don't think they're that important for residency. Med school, boards, and research are much more important. Gap years between undergraduate and medical school don't really matter.

 

[Neurospy]

I am not a medical student yet, although for most of my life I have thought I would like to go into neurosurgery or neurology. The brain and it's internal workings have always been of interest to me and due to this I want to go to medical school and train.<br />
Reality recently struck and I thought to myself "if I don't get into a neurosurgery residency, is their anything else in medicine I actually have any desire to do." well I can't be positive but I really feel as though neurosurgery is where I want to be.<br />
<br />
Ultimately I am asking how hard it is to get a neurosurgery residency as this is probably the reason I will be going to medical school.<br />
<br />
Thanks for advice guys.

 

[happyfeet123]

If you weren't able to get into neurosurgery due to low board scores, what would you do? I'm kind of in that predicament right now. I cant imagine doing anything else.

 

[xf3rn4nd3sx]

I am not a medical student yet, although for most of my life I have thought I would like to go into neurosurgery or neurology. The brain and it's internal workings have always been of interest to me and due to this I want to go to medical school and train.<br />
Reality recently struck and I thought to myself "if I don't get into a neurosurgery residency, is their anything else in medicine I actually have any desire to do." well I can't be positive but I really feel as though neurosurgery is where I want to be.<br />
<br />
Ultimately I am asking how hard it is to get a neurosurgery residency as this is probably the reason I will be going to medical school.<br />
<br />
Thanks for advice guys.

I think this was addressed fairly when in your other thread.

If you weren't able to get into neurosurgery due to low board scores, what would you do? I'm kind of in that predicament right now. I cant imagine doing anything else.

Um what else have you rotated through and liked? I have heard of people waiting a year to apply and strengthening their application, but I'm not too knowledgeable on the subject. Perhaps someone else could comment on this.

 

[happyfeet123]

Oh I'm sorry. I could've phrased it better. I meant that if you couldnt do neurosurgery (not because its hard...etc, but b/c u were limited by scores) what other professions would you have considered?

im fairly certain i dont like IM.

 

[xf3rn4nd3sx]

Oh I'm sorry. I could've phrased it better. I meant that if you couldnt do neurosurgery (not because its hard...etc, but b/c u were limited by scores) what other professions would you have considered?

im fairly certain i dont like IM.

Ophthalmology is REALLY interesting. So ophtho, orthopedics, or maybe reconstructive plastics (although the latter is definitely harder than NS to match into...)

 

[Mjolner]

Ophthalmology is REALLY interesting. So ophtho, orthopedics, or maybe reconstructive plastics (although the latter is definitely harder than NS to match into...)

What's the order of difficulty to match into of the hard to match into specialties?

 

[KinasePro]

What's the order of difficulty to match into of the hard to match into specialties?

this changes occasionally. read this: http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2011.pdf
for ophtho: http://www.sfmatch.org/residency/ophthalmology/about_match/match_report.pdf
for uro: http://www.auanet.org/content/residency/residency-match.cfm#statistics

 

[Giggles88]

Would a person who is fairly shy and soft spoken make it through the residency?

I heard that you have to be extremely assertive or no one will listen to you. I've seen a couple of neurosurgery vids on youtube where the neurosurgeon was kind of a tool.

Do you think that personality is necessary to get things done?

 

[xf3rn4nd3sx]

Would a person who is fairly shy and soft spoken make it through the residency?

I heard that you have to be extremely assertive or no one will listen to you. I've seen a couple of neurosurgery vids on youtube where the neurosurgeon was kind of a tool.

Do you think that personality is necessary to get things done?

Personality doesn't matter too much, but you'll find that residency changes many people. A lot of people who start out shy and reserved become more aggressive as residency progresses. However, there are still a good number of reserved and quiet neurosurgeons. You don't really have to be extremely assertive. Generally, when you speak, people listen. The field does have a tendency to attract or create tools though

 

[Surgicaltech92]

Hi, I was a pre-med student back in 2010, and had to drop out for personal reasons. I still really want to pursue neurosurgery, which is what I was going for, but now I don't think that's possible. So I have been looking into surgical technology and just applied to a school today. What are your thoughts on this career? I have read a lot of negative posts and it seems it is extremely hard to find a job right out of school without experience, which your intern/externships don't count. Is it worth pursuing? I have seen that most people are waiting 2+ years to find a job out of school. How are you supposed to get the experience when nobody is taking new graduates? What about your surgical techs? Please reply, I'm torn in what to do! There are no other careers besides surgery, where my heart is leading me. But I don't want to end up without a job. Thanks!

 

[neusu]

Hi, I was a pre-med student back in 2010, and had to drop out for personal reasons. I still really want to pursue neurosurgery, which is what I was going for, but now I don't think that's possible. So I have been looking into surgical technology and just applied to a school today. What are your thoughts on this career? I have read a lot of negative posts and it seems it is extremely hard to find a job right out of school without experience, which your intern/externships don't count. Is it worth pursuing? I have seen that most people are waiting 2+ years to find a job out of school. How are you supposed to get the experience when nobody is taking new graduates? What about your surgical techs? Please reply, I'm torn in what to do! There are no other careers besides surgery, where my heart is leading me. But I don't want to end up without a job. Thanks!

Scrub techs are in relatively high demand. Due to union issues etc having a full-time 9-5 (or 7:30 - 3:30) job straight out of school may be difficult.

 

[kautionwirez]

Would it be a bad idea to go overseas to do medical related activities during M1 instead of research?

Is volunteering/student run clinic any factor into residency applications? Also medical Spanish proficiency? This is something I am kind of interested in working with low income and gaining experience in the medical setting during M1/M2.

What about surgery interest groups?

 

[darksideone]

Medical school is a sheltered environment. Even on the subI for the students at my home institution they are "not allowed" to wake a patient prior to 05:30. They have to follow the duty hours.

What kind of rubbish is that. Many 4th year med students on Sub-I's put in more hours a month than interns and some residents. Rubbish, there is no duty hours for med students. Please point me to whatever federal/IOM guidelines you are referencing.

 

[neusu]

What kind of rubbish is that. Many 4th year med students on Sub-I's put in more hours a month than interns and some residents. Rubbish, there is no duty hours for med students. Please point me to whatever federal/IOM guidelines you are referencing.

It is a school policy, not a guideline.

 

[Giggles88]

Personality doesn't matter too much, but you'll find that residency changes many people. A lot of people who start out shy and reserved become more aggressive as residency progresses. However, there are still a good number of reserved and quiet neurosurgeons. You don't really have to be extremely assertive. Generally, when you speak, people listen. The field does have a tendency to attract or create tools though

So I've heard...lol.

I have a few more questions:

1. I remember you saying you got lucky as far as neurosurgery research is concerned, but do you know what avenues other neurosurgery hopefuls took when trying to find research?

2. Does the school help students find research at all?

3. And do you have any advice or tips for getting published once we find research?

Thanks again.

 

[btwmd14]

I would prefer to focus my career primarily on intracranial tumors. I enjoy spine work, but I love intracranial work - especially for tumors. I realize it often has some of the poorest outcomes and, as such, can be rather high-stakes - but that’s actually part of what draws me to it. I love working with this patient population. The natures of the conditions, surgeries, and research potentials are very attractive to me.

Am I correct to assume that the “top” programs (usually perceived as the big-name academic powerhouses) will set me up better to groom my career in such a way?
Or is it equally possible to chase such a focus after having trained at a strong community program? Are there diamond-in-the-rough, smaller programs that consistently put out such surgeons?
Does it more come down to how you try to focus your practice after residency? Or will I really be better served by pursuing a more academic course (which I’m interested in).

My sense is that the bigger-name and/or strong academic programs (perceived by most to be top-tier) would offer a better formative course for this, while the more community based programs could potentially leave me wanting. How much truth, if any, is there in that idea?

 

[Jackofknives]

Question: This might be difficult to gauge, but in term of percentage in the big scheme of things when ranking an applicant for residency, how much does USMLE scores weigh at your program?
How is Step1 compared to Step2? And does Step3 score matter? Would having a Step3 score benefit the applicant, if at all?

Thanks.

 

[MDPhDeac]

Thanks to the OP for this thread. My wife will be glad to hear about the breadth of the offers you've received in terms of lifestyle.

 

[neusu]

Unless you fail: Step 1 matters, Step 2 hardly matters, Step 3 does not matter (generally not taken until later in residency)

 

[happyfeet123]

How much can Step 2 compensate for Step 1? Since step 2 hardly matters, would you recommend just leaving it be with your step 1 and just focus on nsg sub i's early on? or should you take step 2 then move onto sub i's?

 

[myshisha]

Well this thread was nothing short of amazing and gave me lots to think about. Thank you very much!

 

[Ajax16]

Well this thread was nothing short of amazing and gave me lots to think about. Thank you very much!

Agreed! I am a college freshman initially interested in Neurology but this thread has really consider Neurosurgery great questions and answers anyone remotely interested in this specialty will appreciate.

 

[skystar]

I am not sure where to post and I think this is where I could get my help. I am 5th year med student and I have a craze about neurosurgery but what if I cant get residency in Uk or US , Can I DO it on self finance without even passing Plab or USMLE.
Plz do help me, I d appreciate your help.

 

[ajh1983]

I would love to hear opinions of the residents/attendings regarding your view of "high scoring" osteopathic applicants to NSGY. None of the premed "anti-DO' predictions please, just experienced opinions as to whether a high scoring (250+ usmle step1), hard working applicant with mild research during MS1/MS2 has a reasonable chance at matching NSGY.

I am going DO because my life was a mess freshman/sophomore year, and my cGPA was 2.98 as a result. My MCAT was very high, I always score very well in standardized testing, and I believe myself to be very approachable, likeable, focused and hardworking. I am accepted to AZCOM this fall (DO). My end goal is to practice back in the midwest near my family after residency (and hopefully during). I'm from western WI, and UW Madison and Mayo sound like they both have great NSGY residencies. I don't need "prestigious" and "high demand" locations, I just want great experience during PGYs, and the ability to follow in similar footsteps to what OP achieved.

Have you encountered other DOs in your residency/practice? Do you have any specific advice for someone in my shoes to help my chances?

Thanks a ton.

 

[572776]

I would love to hear opinions of the residents/attendings regarding your view of "high scoring" osteopathic applicants to NSGY. None of the premed "anti-DO' predictions please, just experienced opinions as to whether a high scoring (250+ usmle step1), hard working applicant with mild research during MS1/MS2 has a reasonable chance at matching NSGY.

I am going DO because my life was a mess freshman/sophomore year, and my cGPA was 2.98 as a result. My MCAT was very high, I always score very well in standardized testing, and I believe myself to be very approachable, likeable, focused and hardworking. I am accepted to AZCOM this fall (DO). My end goal is to practice back in the midwest near my family after residency (and hopefully during). I'm from western WI, and UW Madison and Mayo sound like they both have great NSGY residencies. I don't need "prestigious" and "high demand" locations, I just want great experience during PGYs, and the ability to follow in similar footsteps to what OP achieved.

Have you encountered other DOs in your residency/practice? Do you have any specific advice for someone in my shoes to help my chances?

Thanks a ton.

I think midwest ACGME programs are more open to DO's in any specialty. I believe KU's NS chief resident is a DO

 

[judasreznor]

There are also DOs in Allopathic NS spots at LSU-NO and LSU-Shreveport.

 

[ajh1983]

very nice, thank you.

 

[axiomofchoice]

I think coming from a DO school will make matching an allo NS position VERY difficult.

UW has a pretty strong NS program and I highly doubt Mayo would even consider a DO applicant.

Cook County in Chicago seems to have a decent DO NS program. Theres a few other ones out there. I don't know much about them but I would look into that. I met one DO student on the trail who for some reason refused to apply to the DO programs. Bad move.

 

[judasreznor]

It may be difficult, but not impossible. If you want Allopathic NS, from every DO I've heard about or talked to that matched, you have to have good (and many) publications, great USMLE, and good grades in pre-clinical/clinical years. Essentially, just work hard and don't let anyone tell you what you can or can't do. It isn't impossible.

 

[ajh1983]

I think coming from a DO school will make matching an allo NS position VERY difficult.

UW has a pretty strong NS program and I highly doubt Mayo would even consider a DO applicant.

Cook County in Chicago seems to have a decent DO NS program. Theres a few other ones out there. I don't know much about them but I would look into that. I met one DO student on the trail who for some reason refused to apply to the DO programs. Bad move.

not applicable to me. c/o 2017.

Also, I don't think it's worthwhile to say "X school won't consider a DO" This is why I asked for opinions rooted in experience, not premedical bias. I can read that on the other 99% of sdn.

 

[ajh1983]

It may be difficult, but not impossible. If you want Allopathic NS, from every DO I've heard about or talked to that matched, you have to have good (and many) publications, great USMLE, and good grades in pre-clinical/clinical years. Essentially, just work hard and don't let anyone tell you what you can or can't do. It isn't impossible.

I already assumed the above. The only mystery to me is the NS research arena. Not having any idea what research/pub opportunities will be available to me (yet) is stressful, but I'm sure starting MS1 this year with a nice project will be proactive enough. I'm also interested in optho, so maybe there is some overlap in research that I can hunt down. (yes I know it's also very competitive, and no - I'm not just choosing the most competitive options. True interest in both).

 

[axiomofchoice]

not applicable to me. c/o 2017.

Also, I don't think it's worthwhile to say "X school won't consider a DO" This is why I asked for opinions rooted in experience, not premedical bias. I can read that on the other 99% of sdn.

Didn't realize my status was pre-medical. I interviewed at both programs mentioned.

But by all means. You're in school now and should do the best you can. Research is very important, as are connections.

 

[ajh1983]

Didn't realize my status was pre-medical. I interviewed at both programs mentioned.

But by all means. You're in school now and should do the best you can. Research is very important, as are connections.

My apologies, I hate trying to decipher poster status and background from a label. For clarification I won't have the option of allo vs osteo residencies. I will be a post-merger graduate. All NS residencies in the US will be ACGME when I apply.

If you interviewed at those programs, and have specific support for why you feel they wouldn't consider a DO, by all means I am open to the facts. It's just too easy for conversations to get diluted by anti-DO blah, that I feel people don't realize it's not always so bleak out in the practicing world anymore. Not from anyone I've talked to.

 

[axiomofchoice]

My apologies, I hate trying to decipher poster status and background from a label. For clarification I won't have the option of allo vs osteo residencies. I will be a post-merger graduate. All NS residencies in the US will be ACGME when I apply.

If you interviewed at those programs, and have specific support for why you feel they wouldn't consider a DO, by all means I am open to the facts. It's just too easy for conversations to get diluted by anti-DO blah, that I feel people don't realize it's not always so bleak out in the practicing world anymore. Not from anyone I've talked to.

No worries. I said the things I did based on how the chairman described his selection process during my interview.

I don't think its necessarily an anti-DO sentiment. (Much less so in NS compared with fields like derm and ortho). Its more a supply issue. It seems NS programs are much more likely to take on an independent grad (FMG, DO, old grad) if that individual is impressive. That being said, theres a bunch of DOs and FMGs (even caribbean grads) who have found their way to allo NS programs. It usually takes an extra step. Some commit to one program and spend a year or more doing research within the department. Some simply have outstanding productivity in the field. Research is what can really set you apart here. But remember, not all research is equal. You need to get involved in projects that are meaningful, and will intrigue the people you will be describing them to in interviews.

US MD grads usually do 3 rotations, get a few chairmen letters and that suffices to get a bunch of interviews. My suggestion to you would be to take one or two programs into target and engage them over the next 3 years. Spend summers there doing research, MEETING THE PEOPLE. Then do rotations there. keep in touch with them. Basically establish yourself there. You can probably do this at any program in the country. I'm sure your success will be better at programs that have more of a heterogenous resident population.