Another "Should I become a doctor?" thread

[Kurk]

Hello SDN. This is my first post.

So here's my situation:

I'm currently a high school junior at a competitive private school. I was a B student during my freshman and first-half of sophomore years; now I'm an A student. Any past feelings of apathy or lethargy are gone.

I now put all my energy into pursing a career path which will yield a large amount of wealth, status, and fulfillment. In other words, if I won the mega-millions lottery tomorrow or ten years from now, I would still pursue a profession because I'd feel as though I didn't earn the right to all that money.

Let's cut to my concerns for medicine (in order from most concerning to least):

#1) The future of medicine as it pertains to the rise of government subsidized health-care

- I've listened to hospital administrators and physicians through my school's entrepreneurship club, and they all agree that Obamacare has had a detrimental effect on the field as a whole.
- Physicians also state that medicine isn't what it used to be with the increasing regulations, lack of independence, decreasing salaries, etc (you probably know more about this than I do).
- Ideally, I would've wanted to bust my tail to get into a good med school, bust my tail to get into a good specialist residency and eventually start my own practice after gaining enough experience.
- Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems as though the reimbursements for specialists is decreasing as we try to fulfill the demand for primary care physicians.
- This in turn is discouraging to a person who wanted to combine his great business mind with the fulfillment of medicine.
​

#2) The degradation of medicine as a profession in general

- This short video best summarizes my feelings:
- So in short, (please don't take this as an insult) it seems as though more and more "average intelligence" people are being accepted to medical schools.
- Like Huckabee said, if the brightest people know they can make a lot more money nowadays than the average physician (taking into account debt, malpractice, etc) by going into finance, they'll just do that.
- Those empty spots are then filled by "average" people who in the end become pawns to the system.
- Practicing medicine is an extremely noble profession, but if I know that people are going to try to take advantage of my compassion, I'd be smart enough to be that "business guy" instead.
- I apologize if I sound paranoid or something to that extent.
​

#3) Decrease in salaries

- I'm assuming this mostly applies to specialties, but I could be wrong.
- This really pertains to the aforementioned concerns
- Let's be honest, if you're a PCP who is being compensated not all that much more than a CNP (again taking into consideration the debt, increased stress, etc), would you honestly still become a doctor if you had half a brain? Probably not. And if you said yes, I think you're a great person for being so selfless but the majority of human beings don't think like that and those people usually are taken advantage of by others.
​

When it comes to me:
- Yes I would enter medicine for the money; again money without fulfillment is meaningless to me.
- I'm fairly well rounded when it comes to my school curriculum; I don't find one subject to be particularly challenging or less interesting.
- I think I'm a very malleable person; meaning I know I could succeed in law or business school as an alternative if I put my mind to it.
- I don't believe the arbitrary "do what makes you happy" saying. I will be happy doing something where I make good money while still living a life of significance.
- I'm more of an introvert, however I'm competent when it comes to communicating with people, public speaking, etc.

The money aspect:
At this point (if you've made it this far, thank you) you're probably thinking this kid is arrogant and wants to go into medicine for the wrong reasons. That could be true, maybe not. I've been seriously considering medicine in addition to law and business in the back of my head for years now. I've had exposure to all (hospital volunteering, mock trial, family business, CNP mother, etc). I hope to shadow a physician in the near future.

I'm going to give you my perspective on being a physician in my ideal world:

Accepted to med school: four years of busting my tail to get into a good residency

During or after med school (may not be compatible with future plans): Take advantage of the programs offered by the armed forces where you serve as a medical officer for two years give or take; in turn they pay for a good chunk of your debt.

Residency (presumably a selective specialty): Bust my tail for 3+ years on minimum wage pay to gain experience; drive a beat up prius; live in the projects aka misery etc.

Fast forward to ideal end point: I am now 35 years old with my own interventional radiology clinic in a rural/suburb like state. I'm making 300k plus though still working like a dog.
I've decided to remain celibate and abstain from a relationship for the sake of putting all my energy into my career (At the very least I wouldn't have a family for sure). As the old saying goes, "if you want to be a working parent, pursue X. If you want to be a doctor, be a doctor." <--- (we can elaborate on this some other time)

You could call me a workaholic to say the least. I'm living in either a small house or a nicer apartment despite me now being an established physician. There is one (or a few) thing however which keeps me ticking other than my toxic ambition: My brand new (circle one) Porsche 911/Lamborghini Huracan/Ferrari Italia/AMG S63 sitting in the garage (on a lease of course).


The only time I really have to enjoy my money is on the drive to and from the clinic since I'm pretty much working seven days a week.

Other than the cars and associated maintenance costs, I'd be a pretty frugal guy.

So there it is a nutshell. Judge me all you want; I don't judge your hobbies.

So congrats on getting this far! I really do appreciate it.
Here a few closing questions:

1) So what do you do to alleviate the burn out, stress, etc of practicing medicine?

2) I have a friend who's father is an anesthesiologist; these were his very words, "he gets paid a load of money but he literally has no time to enjoy it...don't be an anesthesiologist". After visiting his mansion of a house and seeing the poor guy on his cell phone the entire time talking about his work, I legitimately felt bad for him. I also just found out that the anesthesiologist himself had to go into surgery recently, though for what reason I do not know.
Is this the lifestyle to be expected? At age 60 to be in poor health with literally no time to get your thoughts together? (not that I mind it of course as long as I'm in good shape - aka hitting the gym as much as possible and hormone replacement therapy )

3) If you could do it all over, would you do it again?


I probably left out a lot of essential info in this post, but then again it's long enough so I'll stop now.

Thank you for me taking up 10 minutes of your precious time.

Kind Regards

---

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[tkim]

Hello SDN. This is my first post.

So here's my situation:

I'm currently a high school junior at a competitive private school. I was a B student during my freshman and first-half of sophomore years; now I'm an A student. Any past feelings of apathy or lethargy are gone.

I now put all my energy into pursing a career path which will yield a large amount of wealth, status, and fulfillment.

I stopped reading after this.

Medicine is not for you.

 

[ndafife]

Yeah. Don't become a doctor.

 

[NotASerialKiller]

I'm glad I skimmed long enough to read:

I probably left out a lot of essential info in this post

 

[Germanicus89]

I am now 35 years old....I've decided to remain celibate and abstain from a relationship for the sake of putting all my energy into my career

 

[Germanicus89]

Shadow doctors, volunteer, get into college, make your own decision.

 

[JustAPhD]

There is one (or a few) thing however which keeps me ticking other than my toxic ambition: My brand new (circle one) Porsche 911/Lamborghini Huracan/Ferrari Italia/AMG S63 sitting in the garage (on a lease of course).

Yikes. Have you thought of business?

 

[eteshoe]

Yea you sound like you would totally thrive in finance/hedge-fund managing. Plus you might actually be able to afford that Porsche 911/Lambo/Ferrari/etc by 35.

 

[JessebenBenjamin]

Oh man. Please don't go into medicine.

 

[Lucca]

Look, you are clearly a very smart kid but I don't think you are at the right position to make any of these decisions. If you were a college junior and you wrote me precisely this post and asked me, 'Should I become a doctor?', then my answer would be: No, you should not.

You self-describe your ambition as toxic -- I'm kind of concerned about this. It's good to be self aware as a high school student. It's bad to describe - consciously or not - a personal quality as toxic. That tells me you might have some unresolved feelings about 1) your self esteem and / or 2) your personal interests beyond simply being 'successful'.

Second, you seem to have a very narrow conception of success or at least seem very preoccupied with status and wealth and symbols of both. When you say fulfilling you seem to be talking about the former and not something more complex or substantial.

Third, your analysis of medicine is very self-centered. That's not necessarily bad at your stage as adolescents - especially hyper-competitive, ambitious types like you and me when I was in your shoes - but medicine is a profession about other people, not you. If your evaluation of medicine is totally based on you and you cannot, once you have more serious exposure to the field, conceive of a different perspective then medicine is absolutely not for you.

 

[whatever5]

Disclaimer - I didn't read your whole post because my brain shut down after the first paragraph.

Anyway, I'm not going to tell you not to become a doctor because I remember being 17, and when I was 17 I was incredibly stupid and had no idea what I wanted out of life. You also sound stupid, so we have that in common. You have TONS of time to figure out if you like medicine by experiencing it yourself. Strangers on the internet won't be much help.

 

[soadhead]

I'm pretty sure that the average MCAT and GPA for med school students has been trending up, not down. So no, there aren't more and more "average intelligence" people being accepted to med school. There are enough "smart" applicants for med schools to choose from, so that they won't have to pick someone who wants to become a doctor to get rich.

 

[Dr. Death]

10/10 A lot of effort went into writing this and for that reason it will fool a lot of people. Well done sir.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Moving to hSDN

 

[TallPreMed]

Stopped reading after about 3 sentences. Go into business.

 

[TallPreMed]

Let me rephrase. You'd think with all that "research" you've done on the profession you would have better utilized this button:

You're not special and you aren't unique. There's plenty of posts regarding this type of thought in this forum.

 

[Kurk]

Well these responses don't surprise me at all. Thanks for taking the time to read my post; I do appreciate it.

30 years ago I would've chosen this field without much hesitation.

 

[sonofva]

Well these responses don't surprise me at all. Thanks for taking the time to read my post; I do appreciate it.

30 years ago I would've chosen this field without much hesitation.

lol. I mean you probably could have asked your questions without giving us the huge diatribe about your thoughts on the current state of medicine and your personal quirks.

I'll give it a serious shot, though.

1) what do you do normally to alleviate stress? Find a hobby. Make time for your family the best you can. I think there is a niche for everyone in medicine where they can find something they genuinely like to do, whether that be patient care, admin, research, sales, etc. the trouble is finding your niche. Once you do, I feel like that alleviates a lot of stress.

2) you can work as much or as little as you like in most fields of medicine, at the cost of pay if you work less and potentially suffering skill atrophy in certain fields. But if you plan your finances right you can move to half time or retired when you're 60.

Also, I wouldn't call the use of hormone replacement therapy "healthy" when you're 17 years old.

3) It's been a tough road. Most people on these forums who have made it will tell you a list of things they've sacrificed if you ask them. But medicine has given me the opportunity to live comfortably, travel the world, and have my wife stay home with the kid. Not many people can genuinely say that.






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[jeffk805dent]

anyone else think this is a troll post?

 

[Kurk]

Also, I wouldn't call the use of hormone replacement therapy "healthy" when you're 17 years old.

Sorry, I was referring to post middle age not 17

I agree with the niche thing; I could see myself being better satisfied as an MD, MBA rather than a PCP.

All in all, I think business would be a better fit for me. I really do appreciate the human body for what it is and enjoy watching medical procedures, but I have no interest in living a life of conformity with my wife, 2.5 kids, and Golden Retriever if that's the best I can hope for with a career in medicine.

I also understand that at 17 I'm susceptible to overconfidence, greed, etc. which can change as I age.

 

[JustintheDoctor]

Not for you.

 

[grapp]

I'm not gonna say you shouldn't be a doctor like the other people. But you seriously need to do your homework as far as gaining knowledge on what they do and the process.

It's going to require to dedicate many years of your life to college, medical school, residency, 4+4+ 2-6 depending on your speciality.

Volunteer, shadow doctors, but it doesn't appear you have the right mindset. Best of respect, hope you consider your options OP.

 

[grapp]

You don't become a doctor to become rich, if you want to become rich make a business.

 

[sonofva]

You don't become a doctor to become rich, if you want to become rich make a business.

If you plan your finances right you can easily be a multi-millionaire as a physician. I mean, you won't be "wiping your butt with dollar bills rich," but you'll definitely be in dat 1% if you know what I mean.


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[Kurk]

Answer this question: is the business aspect of medicine disappearing?

If you plan your finances right you can easily be a multi-millionaire as a physician. I mean, you won't be "wiping your butt with dollar bills rich," but you'll definitely be in dat 1% if you know what I mean.

I agree

 

[grapp]

If you plan your finances right you can easily be a multi-millionaire as a physician. I mean, you won't be "wiping your butt with dollar bills rich," but you'll definitely be in dat 1% if you know what I mean.


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Hi Sonofva,

My point was it shouldn't be the reason you enter medicine. Of course, you can make a decent amount of money doing so. But, to enter medicine for the money I don't believe is the proper incentive. Of course, I may be wrong. However, it's more of a professional statement, again I'm not a med student or a doctor. Personally, I don't think it should be the only reason to enter medicine.

 

[BackForrealz]

Answer this question: is the business aspect of medicine disappearing?

I agree

The business aspect of medicine is thriving without doubt. Private or public institutions have to be profitable.
A better question would be, why are state medical associations extremely weak and ineffective for advocating for physicians and patients? No one talks about it, because they either (A) don't care or (B) have never even heard of a state medical association. In fact, they are probably going to confuse it with a state medical board. I don't understand why patients and physicians are left out on the discussion. Instead we have people in power, I won't mention names, who just sign their own laws and force them onto everyone without a discussion.

This is probably the single biggest reason people stay out of medicine.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

If you plan your finances right you can easily be a multi-millionaire as a physician. I mean, you won't be "wiping your butt with dollar bills rich," but you'll definitely be in dat 1% if you know what I mean.


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Most physicians won't be millionaires. They'll by all means have a very good life and will live in the good area of town in a pretty good house, but they won't be rich or a millionaire in the traditional sense.

 

[sonofva]

Most physicians won't be millionaires. They'll by all means have a very good life and will live in the good area of town in a pretty good house, but they won't be rich or a millionaire in the traditional sense.

If you don't have more than 2.5 million banked away at the end of a 30 year career you have made some poor choices or taken some bad advice along the way. Even as a fp, you should be putting at least 17k into your 401k annually. At an average rate of 9%, figuring you start putting money into the account starting at 30 and ending at 60, you should have around 2.5 million when it's all over. If, instead you continue this until you're 65 (35 years), you should have just shy of 4 million dollars. I don't know how you consider 4 million dollars not rich.


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[Drrrrrr. Celty]

If you don't have more than 2.5 million banked away at the end of a 30 year career you have made some poor choices or taken some bad advice along the way. Even as a fp, you should be putting at least 17k into your 401k annually. At an average rate of 9%, figuring you start putting money into the account starting at 30 and ending at 60, you should have around 2.5 million when it's all over. If, instead you continue this until you're 65 (35 years), you should have just shy of 4 million dollars. I don't know how you consider 4 million dollars not rich.


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I didn't know 401ks were 9% annually. I would have assumed .9%. But then again as a person in my 20s...

 

[randomguy123456]

Hello SDN. This is my first post.

So here's my situation:

I'm currently a high school junior at a competitive private school. I was a B student during my freshman and first-half of sophomore years; now I'm an A student. Any past feelings of apathy or lethargy are gone.

I now put all my energy into pursing a career path which will yield a large amount of wealth, status, and fulfillment. In other words, if I won the mega-millions lottery tomorrow or ten years from now, I would still pursue a profession because I'd feel as though I didn't earn the right to all that money.

Let's cut to my concerns for medicine (in order from most concerning to least):

#1) The future of medicine as it pertains to the rise of government subsidized health-care

- I've listened to hospital administrators and physicians through my school's entrepreneurship club, and they all agree that Obamacare has had a detrimental effect on the field as a whole.
- Physicians also state that medicine isn't what it used to be with the increasing regulations, lack of independence, decreasing salaries, etc (you probably know more about this than I do).
- Ideally, I would've wanted to bust my tail to get into a good med school, bust my tail to get into a good specialist residency and eventually start my own practice after gaining enough experience.
- Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems as though the reimbursements for specialists is decreasing as we try to fulfill the demand for primary care physicians.
- This in turn is discouraging to a person who wanted to combine his great business mind with the fulfillment of medicine.
​

#2) The degradation of medicine as a profession in general

- This short video best summarizes my feelings:
- So in short, (please don't take this as an insult) it seems as though more and more "average intelligence" people are being accepted to medical schools.
- Like Huckabee said, if the brightest people know they can make a lot more money nowadays than the average physician (taking into account debt, malpractice, etc) by going into finance, they'll just do that.
- Those empty spots are then filled by "average" people who in the end become pawns to the system.
- Practicing medicine is an extremely noble profession, but if I know that people are going to try to take advantage of my compassion, I'd be smart enough to be that "business guy" instead.
- I apologize if I sound paranoid or something to that extent.
​

#3) Decrease in salaries

- I'm assuming this mostly applies to specialties, but I could be wrong.
- This really pertains to the aforementioned concerns
- Let's be honest, if you're a PCP who is being compensated not all that much more than a CNP (again taking into consideration the debt, increased stress, etc), would you honestly still become a doctor if you had half a brain? Probably not. And if you said yes, I think you're a great person for being so selfless but the majority of human beings don't think like that and those people usually are taken advantage of by others.
​

When it comes to me:
- Yes I would enter medicine for the money; again money without fulfillment is meaningless to me.
- I'm fairly well rounded when it comes to my school curriculum; I don't find one subject to be particularly challenging or less interesting.
- I think I'm a very malleable person; meaning I know I could succeed in law or business school as an alternative if I put my mind to it.
- I don't believe the arbitrary "do what makes you happy" saying. I will be happy doing something where I make good money while still living a life of significance.
- I'm more of an introvert, however I'm competent when it comes to communicating with people, public speaking, etc.

The money aspect:
At this point (if you've made it this far, thank you) you're probably thinking this kid is arrogant and wants to go into medicine for the wrong reasons. That could be true, maybe not. I've been seriously considering medicine in addition to law and business in the back of my head for years now. I've had exposure to all (hospital volunteering, mock trial, family business, CNP mother, etc). I hope to shadow a physician in the near future.

I'm going to give you my perspective on being a physician in my ideal world:

Accepted to med school: four years of busting my tail to get into a good residency

During or after med school (may not be compatible with future plans): Take advantage of the programs offered by the armed forces where you serve as a medical officer for two years give or take; in turn they pay for a good chunk of your debt.

Residency (presumably a selective specialty): Bust my tail for 3+ years on minimum wage pay to gain experience; drive a beat up prius; live in the projects aka misery etc.

Fast forward to ideal end point: I am now 35 years old with my own interventional radiology clinic in a rural/suburb like state. I'm making 300k plus though still working like a dog.
I've decided to remain celibate and abstain from a relationship for the sake of putting all my energy into my career (At the very least I wouldn't have a family for sure). As the old saying goes, "if you want to be a working parent, pursue X. If you want to be a doctor, be a doctor." <--- (we can elaborate on this some other time)

You could call me a workaholic to say the least. I'm living in either a small house or a nicer apartment despite me now being an established physician. There is one (or a few) thing however which keeps me ticking other than my toxic ambition: My brand new (circle one) Porsche 911/Lamborghini Huracan/Ferrari Italia/AMG S63 sitting in the garage (on a lease of course).


The only time I really have to enjoy my money is on the drive to and from the clinic since I'm pretty much working seven days a week.

Other than the cars and associated maintenance costs, I'd be a pretty frugal guy.

So there it is a nutshell. Judge me all you want; I don't judge your hobbies.

So congrats on getting this far! I really do appreciate it.
Here a few closing questions:

1) So what do you do to alleviate the burn out, stress, etc of practicing medicine?

2) I have a friend who's father is an anesthesiologist; these were his very words, "he gets paid a load of money but he literally has no time to enjoy it...don't be an anesthesiologist". After visiting his mansion of a house and seeing the poor guy on his cell phone the entire time talking about his work, I legitimately felt bad for him. I also just found out that the anesthesiologist himself had to go into surgery recently, though for what reason I do not know.
Is this the lifestyle to be expected? At age 60 to be in poor health with literally no time to get your thoughts together? (not that I mind it of course as long as I'm in good shape - aka hitting the gym as much as possible and hormone replacement therapy )

3) If you could do it all over, would you do it again?


I probably left out a lot of essential info in this post, but then again it's long enough so I'll stop now.

Thank you for me taking up 10 minutes of your precious time.

Kind Regards

It seems like you're worried about the financial/prestige/lifestyle aspect of a physician. If this is what you're concerned about then I don't believe becoming a doctor is right for you. If you want a lavish lifestyle and a secure financial situation without having to put in years and years and YEARS of studying and taking tests then work at a bank/wall st/engineer or something.

I'm starting med school this year, and the doctors I'm currently working for told me not to become a doctor. The pay isn't worth the amount of studying/time/energy you put into this career. However, they tell me that if they had to re-choose their career again they wouldn't change a thing because helping patients and saving their lives is what they LOVE to do. They wouldn't trade it for anything.

Who cares about the prestige and money? Medical students I've talked to during my interview sessions were so eager and excited to start medical school. We all have a passion for medicine and to spend the rest of lives having the skills and assets to save peoples' lives. How cool is that? And we've all had experiences where we were inspired and grew passion for medicine. And here I'm reading about how worried you are about the money/time/prestige...is it worth it?...if you're questioning yourself with these types of questions, maybe a different career is right for you. Once you start med school, you're already tens of thousands of dollars in debt. You have to be 200% committed, no second thoughts. Peace.

 

[BackForrealz]

It seems like you're worried about the financial/prestige/lifestyle aspect of a physician. If this is what you're concerned about then I don't believe becoming a doctor is right for you. If you want a lavish lifestyle and a secure financial situation without have to put in years and years and YEARS of studying and taking tests then work at a bank/wall st/engineer or something.

I'm starting med school this year, and the doctors I'm currently working for told me not to become a doctor. The pay isn't worth the amount of studying/time/energy you put into this career. However, they tell me that if they had to re-choose their career again they wouldn't change a thing because helping patients and saving their lives is what they LOVE to do. They wouldn't trade it for anything.

Who cares about the prestige and money? Medical students I've talked to during my interview sessions were so eager and excited to start medical school. We all have a passion for medicine and to spend the rest of lives having the skills and assets to save peoples' lives. How cool is that? And we've all had experiences where we were inspired and grew passion for medicine. And here I'm reading about how worried you are about the money/time/prestige...is it worth it?...if you're questioning yourself with these types of questions, maybe a different career is right for you. Once you start med school, you're already tens of thousands of dollars in debt. You have to be 200% committed, no second thoughts. Peace.

New plan. Get an engineering degree, go work and build a reputation. Then go back to medical school( if they government doesn't destroy medicine that is)! MUCH better approach. Besides, you won't have to beg for money.

 

[Kurk]

My original post can be best summed up into: What is the outlook of medicine from a cynical perspective?

I look at Europe and see that median physician compensation is a meager 80k a year for primary care physicians. Specialist pay isn't all that much better with a median of 83k a year. CNPs in the US make more than this with reduced stress, debt, schooling, and better life styles folks.

Look, I wouldn't mind working for this salary if there were better work hours, decreased debt, shorter training period, etc. because I have a profound interest in medicine.

This is not the case however and it's unlikely it ever will be the case in America anytime soon.

Again, it's not that I don't like medicine, but I have to balance reality with what my heart wants.
For example, even if I really enjoyed English, I probably wouldn't pursuit an English major because I know that they're generally paid next to nothing in the free market.

And I believe many are misunderstanding what I mean when I mention the sports car. I'm not asking for a lavish lifestyle. I said I was willing to live in a small apartment, eat ramen noodles, shop at Goodwill, etc. in exchange for just one thing which I've always had a passion for since I was young: cars. I'm not looking for symbols of wealth, I just really like being around cars as a hobby, form of stress relief etc.

Perhaps you spend time with your family for stress relief, others might garden, but I enjoy cars. I don't judge your hobbies, don't judge mine.

And I honestly believe leasing a car for that amount of money isn't impossible if you live a frugal life and manage your money efficiently.

 

[jeffk805dent]

If you want a lavish lifestyle and a secure financial situation without have to put in years and years and YEARS of studying and taking tests then work at a bank/wall st/engineer or something.

Once you start med school, you're already tens of thousands of dollars in debt. You have to be 200% committed, no second thoughts. Peace.

Though they may not the debt of a med school student, shouldnt a banker also give 200%? Investment banking is a dog-eat-dog world out there.

 

[randomguy123456]

Though they may not the debt of a med school student, shouldnt a banker also give 200%? Investment banking is a dog-eat-dog world out there.

Yeah, anything you do in life you should be fully committed. But you don't have to go through years and years of school/residency after undergrad and be about a quarter of a million dollars in debt to become a banker.

 

[escanoke]

Sorry, I was referring to post middle age not 17

I agree with the niche thing; I could see myself being better satisfied as an MD, MBA rather than a PCP.

All in all, I think business would be a better fit for me. I really do appreciate the human body for what it is and enjoy watching medical procedures, but I have no interest in living a life of conformity with my wife, 2.5 kids, and Golden Retriever if that's the best I can hope for with a career in medicine.

I also understand that at 17 I'm susceptible to overconfidence, greed, etc. which can change as I age.

I'm 27 and from what I've learned so far from life, you can plan all you want but life usually has its own plan for you. So just keep going and your life will unfold. I know, I know, I sound like a hippy but your mentality isn't going to change until you get some more life experiences in. So good luck and I'm sure you'll do just fine. And remember to always reevaluate each year what YOU think is your definition of happiness


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[Law2Doc]

If you don't have more than 2.5 million banked away at the end of a 30 year career you have made some poor choices or taken some bad advice along the way. Even as a fp, you should be putting at least 17k into your 401k annually. At an average rate of 9%, figuring you start putting money into the account starting at 30 and ending at 60, you should have around 2.5 million when it's all over. If, instead you continue this until you're 65 (35 years), you should have just shy of 4 million dollars. I don't know how you consider 4 million dollars not rich.


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Meh. If you are in one of the lower primary care specialties, earn in the ballpark of $170k, pay your taxes, have kids who you need to pay for daycare, schooling, college, and/or a spouse that doesn't work, have your own student debt, and live a comfortable life in a good neighborhood, drive a reliable car, eat out a few times a month, pay for Internet/cable, and go on a few family vacations a year, you probably won't amass $4 million. And that assumes no big health related expenses, fires, floods, etc. You should be able to save something toward retirement every paycheck, but I think you've watched way too many investment call -in shows if you think we are talking about amassing millions. That assumes a higher salary and a very healthy return on investment that frankly we haven't seen outside of a few bubble years.

These days doctors get to be comfortable, not rich. If you peg success on guys who earned more in times where inflation was lower, student debt was lower, and returns on investment were much much higher (which I suspect is where your notions are based) you are going to end up with a warped view of what is likely.

 

[Kurk]

Meh. If you are in one of the lower primary care specialties, earn in the ballpark of $170k, pay your taxes, have kids who you need to pay for daycare, schooling, college, and/or a spouse that doesn't work, have your own student debt, and live a comfortable life in a good neighborhood, drive a reliable car, eat out a few times a month, pay for Internet/cable, and go on a few family vacations a year, you probably won't amass $4 million. And that assumes no big health related expenses, fires, floods, etc. You should be able to save something toward retirement every paycheck, but I think you've watched way too many investment call -in shows if you think we are talking about amassing millions. That assumes a higher salary and a very healthy return on investment that frankly we haven't seen outside of a few bubble years.

These days doctors get to be comfortable, not rich. If you peg success on guys who earned more in times where inflation was lower, student debt was lower, and returns on investment were much much higher (which I suspect is where your notions are based) you are going to end up with a warped view of what is likely.

And what if you don't have kids, marry a working spouse or remain single, live in a small apartment or with your parents, don't pay for cable/internet, don't go on vacation often, shop at Goodwill, get involved with stocks, let the Republicans win, etc., then can you amass a good amount of money?

My CNP mom works with a PCP who basically lives like that but with a family. If he can do it, can't others do the same?

 

[eteshoe]

And what if you don't have kids, marry a working spouse or remain single, live in a small apartment or with your parents, don't pay for cable/internet, don't go on vacation often, shop at Goodwill, get involved with stocks, let the Republicans win, etc., then can you amass a good amount of money?

My CNP mom works with a PCP who basically lives like that but with a family. If he can do it, can't others do the same?

I don't think it's a question of having the ability to live that frugally. I think it comes down to people living just above the poverty line for so long (e.g. during training) that eventually one just wants to be an adult and enjoy the 'finer' things in life a bit.

 

[Law2Doc]

And what if you don't have kids, marry a working spouse or remain single, live in a small apartment or with your parents, don't pay for cable/internet, don't go on vacation often, shop at Goodwill, get involved with stocks, let the Republicans win, etc., then can you amass a good amount of money?

My CNP mom works with a PCP who basically lives like that but with a family. If he can do it, can't others do the same?

Well sure, if you have a nice dual income, live a not-so-comfortable life, don't have kids, you can obviously save more. But come on, you aren't really seriously going to become a doctor and stay in your parents basement alone eating Ramen 7 night a week, are you?

That might sound appealing to a few high school students on here for about ten minutes, but I think most of the people on here get that living broke is something you only do when you ARE broke. It's great to be frugal but in reality most of us will spend the Lions share of what we earn on pretty modest things (housing, student loans, transportation, utilities, food, childcare, domestic family vacations), and the best of us only have so much to sock away for the future. So unless your investments take off, or you earn more than the average doc, or you marry well, or inherit, you will live a comfortable but hardly extravagant existence. Most doctors should be able to sock away something within the six digit range , but less likely seven.

 

[mcloaf]

And what if you don't have kids, marry a working spouse or remain single, live in a small apartment or with your parents, don't pay for cable/internet, don't go on vacation often, shop at Goodwill, get involved with stocks, let the Republicans win, etc., then can you amass a good amount of money?

My CNP mom works with a PCP who basically lives like that but with a family. If he can do it, can't others do the same?

So you're planning on driving a lambo but not paying for an internet connection to save cash. Seems legit.

 

[Kurk]

So you're planning on driving a lambo but not paying for an internet connection to save cash. Seems legit.

Precisely

 

[sonofva]

Meh. If you are in one of the lower primary care specialties, earn in the ballpark of $170k, pay your taxes, have kids who you need to pay for daycare, schooling, college, and/or a spouse that doesn't work, have your own student debt, and live a comfortable life in a good neighborhood, drive a reliable car, eat out a few times a month, pay for Internet/cable, and go on a few family vacations a year, you probably won't amass $4 million. And that assumes no big health related expenses, fires, floods, etc. You should be able to save something toward retirement every paycheck, but I think you've watched way too many investment call -in shows if you think we are talking about amassing millions. That assumes a higher salary and a very healthy return on investment that frankly we haven't seen outside of a few bubble years.

These days doctors get to be comfortable, not rich. If you peg success on guys who earned more in times where inflation was lower, student debt was lower, and returns on investment were much much higher (which I suspect is where your notions are based) you are going to end up with a warped view of what is likely.

It should be easy for someone who makes 175k to put 1500$ a month into their 401k. And it's not unreasonable to expect a 9% return.

I make significantly less than that as a military physician, and I still manage to hit that benchmark monthly. This is with a kid, living where we want to, and essentially doing whatever we want to all the time within reason. Maybe we have to sacrifice a dinner out on occasion or wait a few extra months to buy the new dining room furniture. We don't drive Porsches. But, we have our priorities in order and the discipline to save and invest.

The problem is that people don't start thinking about investing until way later than they should. As an example, I started putting away money for my daughters college the day I found out my wife was pregnant. I have to put way less away each month as a result than if I'd started when she was older, and as a result it's way less of a strain financially.

People need to be active participants in their financial future and plan ahead. The rest will take care of itself, barring another Great Depression.

And as far as wanting the "finer things"... That's where people's notions are skewed. It admittedly sucks having to sacrifice so much during medical training, and not be Mr. Moneybags once it's done. But future students need to decide if they want to drive a Ferrari once their done with residency, or drive a civic and be able to retire comfortably at 65 and support their families well along the way.


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[Law2Doc]

It should be easy for someone who makes 175k to put 1500$ a month into their 401k. And it's not unreasonable to expect a 9% return.

First, whether $1500 is "easy" depends on your other expenses. Your income per month really isn't going to be as high as some of you guys think that you won't miss $1500 pretax here or there. If you have high student loans at a hefty interest rate, it may be useful to pay those off earlier. But sure, to the extent you can afford it you put away pretax income, especially if your employer will match it.

Where we disagree is whether it is reasonable to expect 9%. It's not. The 20 year average on index funds is 9-10% but that includes some bubble years which are not likely to be reproducible and certainly can't be counted on averaged in. There historically have been years when returns are as low as 3-4% and so "expecting" 9 is kind of like expecting to be paid a top salary - you can dream, but not count on it. My bet is 6-7% is a pretty good conservative rate to count on. It's what you get if you ignore the bubbles.

 

[ComputerGuy365]

Yeah, you can't be about the money and status. Fulfillment is understandable, but if you really want to be rich you should probably go become an investment banker

 

[Kurk]

Yeah, you can't be about the money and status. Fulfillment is understandable, but if you really want to be rich you should probably go become an investment banker

I don't know why everybody keeps saying this like it's some sort of panacea to all our problems. To make it big in investment banking, your only option is to make it into the Wall Street firms. It's not nearly as versatile as medicine nor does it guarantee job security like medicine. Additionally, in my opinion, there aren't too many other career fields which provide the same amount of fulfillment as healthcare does.

Personally, I would hope that if an ambitious person enters medicine, postpones marriage and "the small things in life" in order to really bust their tail to get into a competitive, well-paying specialty that they would be able to make as much the investment banker later in their career. Yes, the banker would be making the money earlier without the debt, but for someone who needs their career to be fulfilling but also financially rewarding ,medicine is where it's at.

But I'm just a naive high-school student living in the past, right?

 

[eteshoe]

I don't know why everybody keeps saying this like it's some sort of panacea to all our problems. To make it big in investment banking, your only option is to make it into the Wall Street firms. It's not nearly as versatile as medicine nor does it guarantee job security like medicine. Additionally, in my opinion, there aren't too many other career fields which provide the same amount of fulfillment as healthcare does.

Personally, I would hope that if an ambitious person enters medicine, postpones marriage and "the small things in life" in order to really bust their tail to get into a competitive, well-paying specialty that they would be able to make as much the investment banker later in their career. Yes, the banker would be making the money earlier without the debt, but for someone who needs their career to be fulfilling but also financially rewarding ,medicine is where it's at.

But I'm just a naive high-school student living in the past, right?

You mean a doctor being able to compete with those top tier investment bankers or hedge fund managers pulling down $7-10 million/yr (or more) at their prime. Good luck with that. You won't be in the poorhouse as a doctor, but if you can finagle your way into making that much money as a doctor, your talents are better served in the financial sector.

 

[meditative_premed]

OP, you need to read The White Coat Investor by James Dahle, MD. It will give you a realistic idea of how student loans and interest rates work now (we are getting screwed compared to student doctors of the past), how med school tuition is trending up, physician salary is trending down, and how to build wealth in the 5-10 years after finishing residency. Medicine might have been a good way to get rich quick in the past, but that's definitely not the case anymore. You have the right idea about living frugally to save money, but best case scenario you might be out from under your student loan debt and save up ~1 million dollars by the time you're 40, and that's only if you play your financial cards VERY wisely. You will live a very comfortable life as a doctor, but by no means will you be living a flashy life. You're still very young to even be considering these types of things, but since you are, I'll just say the sooner you figure out for yourself if the financial struggle is worth the career satisfaction, the better.

 

[Kurk]

I know a 40 year old orthopedic surgeon on the other hand, who trained hard, set up his practice, stayed single, worked very hard, bought a house with 6 garages and now has a

Ferrari 575m
Aston Martin DB9
Porsche GT2
Range RoverSupercharger
Cooper Works Mini
and a golf cart.

 

[oto8484]

Once you start college and have to study way more than non-science majors, you will know. And if not then, studying for the mcat will guide you. Medicine is about bringing health to others and treating them, and continuously learning. I would say don't worry about it that much, time will only tell. You are so so young and there is such a long journey ahead of you. If you were to be payed $0 for treating someone, would you still want to become a doctor? I know a few doctors who hate their job and they went in it for the money!