Anesthesiology vs. Psychiatry

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jack.jaret

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I know these are 2 are total opposites, but I'm a 4th year and am down to these 2. I can't figure it out no matter how much I sit and try to evaluate. I was hoping one of you could help.

Anesthesia pros: procedure based, quick and intense patient interaction, lots of money, somewhat controllable lifestyle

Psychiatry pros: lots of interesting patients (I have a history of sexual and physical abuse so am somewhat drawn to them), very controllable lifestyle, decent money

Psychiatry seems more "chill" and lifestyle is huge for me. but sometimes I feel like I may miss out on the OR environment and miss procedures. It's hard to tell as a 4th year. I just don't know how to make such a big life decision based on such short rotations.

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I know these are 2 are total opposites, but I'm a 4th year and am down to these 2. I can't figure it out no matter how much I sit and try to evaluate. I was hoping one of you could help.

Anesthesia pros: procedure based, quick and intense patient interaction, lots of money, somewhat controllable lifestyle

Psychiatry pros: lots of interesting patients (I have a history of sexual and physical abuse so am somewhat drawn to them), very controllable lifestyle, decent money

Psychiatry seems more "chill" and lifestyle is huge for me. but sometimes I feel like I may miss out on the OR environment and miss procedures. It's hard to tell as a 4th year. I just don't know how to make such a big life decision based on such short rotations.
Just see lots of patients who need ECTs! ;)

More seriously:

1) You have to ask yourself basic questions like, what's more important to you -- seeing and talking to patients vs caring for patients when they're having surgery, working in a hospital-based specialty vs almost the complete opposite, are you the type of person able to deal with a crashing patient or not (be honest with yourself), dealing with a variety of cases from patients of all ages with many different pathologies vs focusing mainly on mental health, etc?

2) Also, don't just think of the pros, but think of the cons of each specialty for you too. What are they and which specialty has worse cons in your view?

3) Consider the available practice settings for each. Are there jobs available for them that you could imagine yourself working in? What's the outlook for each specialty?

4) Have you posted this in the psychiatry forum as well? It might be helpful to get advice from both.
 
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I know these are 2 are total opposites, but I'm a 4th year and am down to these 2. I can't figure it out no matter how much I sit and try to evaluate. I was hoping one of you could help.

Anesthesia pros: procedure based, quick and intense patient interaction, lots of money, somewhat controllable lifestyle

Psychiatry pros: lots of interesting patients (I have a history of sexual and physical abuse so am somewhat drawn to them), very controllable lifestyle, decent money

Psychiatry seems more "chill" and lifestyle is huge for me. but sometimes I feel like I may miss out on the OR environment and miss procedures. It's hard to tell as a 4th year. I just don't know how to make such a big life decision based on such short rotations.

If you are good and like in physiology go for anesthesia. If your friends or family seek your general counsel in trouble shooting life, mental issues and you like that then psych. Also remember you might like one field but if your attendings don't think that is suited to you pay attention.
 
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If you like variety, anesthesia may be for you, because you deal with all sorts of stuff peri/intraop. we probably use as much antipsychotics as psychiatrists
 
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Haven't you ever seen the career choice flow chart? Anesthesia and Psych split pretty early...
search
haha

If you really like taking to patients and it's your reason for going into medicine, I don't know if anesthesia is for you. Would recommend psych instead.
 
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I considered psych at one point. The similarities between gas and psych are subtle but there. Both involve management of the CNS, both are considered cushy and undemanding fields, although this is only true in gas if you do your own cases from what I've seen. What ultimately killed psych for me though was the questionable data behind the field. It's very important to me to avoid subjectivity and bickering by pointing to the data and letting it speak for itself. You can't really do this a lot of the time in psych because so much of it contradicts, or is unreliable. Another big thing for me: paperwork. It's pretty heavy in psych, whereas gas is the least paperwork intensive field I've come across. That by itself nearly sold me since as a physician I want most of my time to be spent doing physician things and not being a glorified office manager.
 
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Psych all the way. You will never have the kind of independence over your life in anesthesia like you would as a shrink. Unless of course you work part time or prn. The OR can also have very stressful situations and personalities. Almost every week I feel like I should have just gone thru and done psychiatry instead. And now I am thinking of a fellowship to get me of the OR part time.
 
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If your friends or family seek your general counsel in trouble shooting life, mental issues and you like that then psych.
This sounds like what someone who doesn't know much about psychiatry would say. Psychiatry is about treating mental disorders. Giving life advice is more the role of a life coach. Even psychotherapy, which many psychiatrists don't formally do much of, is distinctly different from giving advice or talking with friends and family.
 
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Psych all the way. You will never have the kind of independence over your life in anesthesia like you would as a shrink. Unless of course you work part time or prn. The OR can also have very stressful situations and personalities. Almost every week I feel like I should have just gone thru and done psychiatry instead. And now I am thinking of a fellowship to get me of the OR part time.
Know a good one? :angelic:
 
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Anesthesia --> Pain (Interventional Psych)

Nah, both are good. Just figure out which one you like the bread and butter of.

Do you enjoy talking to patients more or doing stuff to them?
Do you enjoy writing medications and seeing how they do in a few weeks, or giving medications and seeing the effect in a few seconds?

Optimally, Psych --> Pain (Functional Psych + injections + addiction) and you'll always have people looking to hire you
 
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@jack.jaret, choosing a specialty is not easy. You have to take a really good look at your naked true self, without wishful thinking, and check what fits and what doesn't with the chosen specialty (personality, skills, lifestyle, pay etc.). Even if you have all the data (which you don't, as a student, or even as a resident), it's a tough choice.

For example, I am average at anesthesia, but probably above average at critical care (something that my attendings noticed even as a CA-1, but it took me a long time to realize). On paper in the top 25% at both, knowledge-wise. (Knowledge doesn't really matter that much in anesthesia, whatever wiseguys like to say, hence the difference.) Also, to me, procedures are a means to an end, not the epitome of the specialty; if you want to be happy in anesthesiology, you must be orgasmic from doing procedures, not from fixing patients (the latter is much rarer and you usually get zero credit for it, or for practicing evidence-based medicine, and you are judged by your procedural skills). And I don't really like being told what to do, especially by people who don't know what they don't know, who practice yesterday's medicine (i.e. surgeons); I like being treated as a consultant, not as a nurse. Some people just don't care about that, as long as they get their paycheck. And I am generally a nice person, way too nice for the surgical environment, which is more akin to swimming with sharks; you really need a thick skin with certain dinguses. You also have to enjoy endless worthless chats with OR people, who are generally not particularly bright (it takes a special IQ to mess with the hand with the pulse ox during induction, or to chat loudly during emergence etc.), especially if you are stool-sitting. It can be like having clinic with and listening to the same patients every day; it can be beyond boring. Of course, this is all stuff I didn't know when I chose the specialty, not even about myself.

Accordingly, I enjoy practicing critical care way more than anesthesia. Except that there are much fewer critical care jobs for anesthesiologists in my area (and most areas of the country). Also, anesthesia tends to pay better than critical care (especially when adjusted to the stress level). And it can have a better lifestyle, especially in a no-call setting. I can't even stand the idea of ICU jobs where I see 20 patients/day, and busy 12 hour shifts are not my favorite pastime (I am beyond the happy puppy age of 20-35). Let's not mention working every 2nd weekend. There are even people who try to sell 7x24 hours in-house/2 weeks off combined intensivist/community hospital nanny resource jobs as a "lifestyle" job. So what do you choose?

My advice is to choose the specialty that gives you the most time off (especially if it allows you to practice independently). Nothing heals the soul better than being rested and spending time doing what you like (especially if you work for yourself, not the man). You work to live, not live to work. The rest will come. You will be much happier at work, unless you really hate the job. If you aren't a workaholic (which is basically a psych disorder, because you have a huge chance of ****ing up your family relationships long-term), you will should never enjoy your work more than spending time with your family. Don't chase the money, except if it's soooo good that for every year worked you gain 3-4 years of early retirement. Which rarely applies for employed docs nowadays. Btw, you and your family should be living on $100K or less regardless how much you make.

There is much-much more to think about. I only wanted to show you how little you know as a student, and I only scratched the surface. If you follow my basic advice, you'll thank me when you're in your forties. ;)
 
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Thank you all so much for the great responses. I would like to especially thank @FFP for his long response - you sound like someone who has seen it all and had some great advice to give. Throughout your response, I kept thinking "wow, psych just sounds so much better for me." I have a few follow up questions...

1) The respect anesthesiologists get is FAR superior than psychiatrists and most other physicians, and I'm having a hard time letting that go (I know it sounds petty, but hey I'm trying). Advice?
2) How easy is it to get a 40 hour/week job these days? and what kind of salary would go with it?
 
1) The respect anesthesiologists get is FAR superior than psychiatrists and most other physicians, and I'm having a hard time letting that go (I know it sounds petty, but hey I'm trying). Advice?

:lol:

I think you are misinformed on that one. I feel very well respected in my MD only practice, but many here would say you are 100% incorrect in this assertion.

How easy is it to get a 40 hour/week job these days? and what kind of salary would go with it?

Mommy track jobs are fairly available with salary depending largely on locale. If you wanted to be 7a-3p contractor at my shop you'd be looking at 300K 1099 (no benefits) for a 2000hr work year. I realize that's not stellar hourly pay, but it's a highly desirable location and you get to pick when you want to work.
 
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Thank you all so much for the great responses. I would like to especially thank @FFP for his long response - you sound like someone who has seen it all and had some great advice to give. Throughout your response, I kept thinking "wow, psych just sounds so much better for me." I have a few follow up questions...

1) The respect anesthesiologists get is FAR superior than psychiatrists and most other physicians, and I'm having a hard time letting that go (I know it sounds petty, but hey I'm trying). Advice?
2) How easy is it to get a 40 hour/week job these days? and what kind of salary would go with it?
I don't know about #1? Unfortunately most of the public doesn't know anesthesiologists are physicians. As for other physicians, let's just say, "Hey anesthesia!"

As far as solutions, have the mentality of who cares what other people think? You just do what you want to do.

Also, you can earn respect from others. That's not so much dependent on the choice of your specialty, but dependent on how you function and what you achieve in whatever specialty you choose. For example, people might think a neurosurgeon is worthy of respect simply because they're a neurosurgeon, but I'm sure we've all heard of neurosurgeons who we wouldn't want to operate on us or family or friends. Family medicine gets s*** on a lot, but there are some amazing family physicians we know and respect.
 
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@jack.jaret, choosing a specialty is not easy. You have to take a really good look at your naked true self, without wishful thinking, and check what fits and what doesn't with the chosen specialty (personality, skills, lifestyle, pay etc.). Even if you have all the data (which you don't, as a student, or even as a resident), it's a tough choice.

For example, I am average at anesthesia, but probably above average at critical care (something that my attendings noticed even as a CA-1, but it took me a long time to realize). On paper in the top 25% at both, knowledge-wise. (Knowledge doesn't really matter that much in anesthesia, whatever wiseguys like to say, hence the difference.) Also, to me, procedures are a means to an end, not the epitome of the specialty; if you want to be happy in anesthesiology, you must be orgasmic from doing procedures, not from fixing patients (the latter is much rarer and you usually get zero credit for it, or for practicing evidence-based medicine, and you are judged by your procedural skills). And I don't really like being told what to do, especially by people who don't know what they don't know, who practice yesterday's medicine (i.e. surgeons); I like being treated as a consultant, not as a nurse. Some people just don't care about that, as long as they get their paycheck. And I am generally a nice person, way too nice for the surgical environment, which is more akin to swimming with sharks; you really need a thick skin with certain dinguses. You also have to enjoy endless worthless chats with OR people, who are generally not particularly bright (it takes a special IQ to mess with the hand with the pulse ox during induction, or to chat loudly during emergence etc.), especially if you are stool-sitting. It can be like having clinic with and listening to the same patients every day; it can be beyond boring. Of course, this is all stuff I didn't know when I chose the specialty, not even about myself.

Accordingly, I enjoy practicing critical care way more than anesthesia. Except that there are much fewer critical care jobs for anesthesiologists in my area (and most areas of the country). Also, anesthesia tends to pay better than critical care (especially when adjusted to the stress level). And it can have a better lifestyle, especially in a no-call setting. I can't even stand the idea of ICU jobs where I see 20 patients/day, and busy 12 hour shifts are not my favorite pastime (I am beyond the happy puppy age of 20-35). Let's not mention working every 2nd weekend. There are even people who try to sell 7x24 hours in-house/2 weeks off combined intensivist/community hospital nanny resource jobs as a "lifestyle" job. So what do you choose?

My advice is to choose the specialty that gives you the most time off (especially if it allows you to practice independently). Nothing heals the soul better than being rested and spending time doing what you like (especially if you work for yourself, not the man). You work to live, not live to work. The rest will come. You will be much happier at work, unless you really hate the job. If you aren't a workaholic (which is basically a psych disorder, because you have a huge chance of ****ing up your family relationships long-term), you will should never enjoy your work more than spending time with your family. Don't chase the money, except if it's soooo good that for every year worked you gain 3-4 years of early retirement. Which rarely applies for employed docs nowadays. Btw, you and your family should be living on $100K or less regardless how much you make.

There is much-much more to think about. I only wanted to show you how little you know as a student, and I only scratched the surface. If you follow my basic advice, you'll thank me when you're in your forties. ;)


Very sad. I'm sorry you chose the wrong specialty.

The part about getting off on procedures is true.

You say you are a nice guy but you think everyone you work with is either an a**hole or an idiot or both. And chatting and socializing is "worthless". It doesn't add up. Speaking of mental disorders, have you ever heard the term cerebral narcissist?

I honestly don't know if you would be happy in ANY specialty.....or any job for that matter.
 
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Very sad. I'm sorry you chose the wrong specialty.

The part about getting off on procedures is true.

You say you are a nice guy but you think everyone you work with is either an a**hole or an idiot or both. And chatting and socializing is "worthless". It doesn't add up. Speaking of mental disorders, have you ever heard the term cerebral narcissist?

I honestly don't know if you would be happy in ANY specialty.....or any job for that matter.
Wow, just wow
Kinda not nice?
 
Very sad. I'm sorry you chose the wrong specialty.

The part about getting off on procedures is true.

You say you are a nice guy but you think everyone you work with is either an a**hole or an idiot or both. And chatting and socializing is "worthless". It doesn't add up. Speaking of mental disorders, have you ever heard the term cerebral narcissist?
Oops, I knew this would happen. Candor always gets punished, sooner or later. People love to judge (others, never themselves). :)

I am a perfectionist (but not a cerebral narcissist - I looked it up). I have never made a secret of it on this forum. Also you are confusing me being honest here with behaving like an arse in public. What I think and what I do are two different things. I try to be nice and non-judgmental to people; IQ is not everything, titles and personal achievements are not everything, there is always more than what the eye can see. I certainly don't have a negative opinion about most people, but neither do I have a positive one. I tend to find that "practical" people are usually not that intelligent (the less one knows the fewer doubts one has), and the surgical world worships them; that's why I advise students who have inclinations towards evidence-based thoughtful medicine to stay away.

Chatting and socializing is never worthless in a tribal system. It matters more who you know than what you know, especially in the medical field. It just gets tiring if it's too much, because it's noise (like bad music), and you cannot just walk away from your OR case. If it's so great in the OR, why do so many anesthesiologists try to get out of it?
I honestly don't know if you would be happy in ANY specialty.....or any job for that matter.
You are probably wrong. Just recently I spent a pretty happy year in my fellowship. I just grew up in a different culture, and I don't live to work, which is the American (medical) standard. Especially above 40 hours/week as an employee. Do you ever wonder why American doctors have the divorce rates they have? Or why many anesthesiologists envy CRNA lifestyles?

I don't think it's the wrong specialty for me (or other perfectionists). It's the wrong geographical market (where I am stuck for family reasons). Give me 8-12 weeks of vacation a year with 40-45 hours at work/week in a decent place, and I am a much happier person. Been there, done that (except for the vacation part, before I started posting on this forum); even that job is way worse nowadays than it was like 5 years ago.
 
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Wow, just wow
Kinda not nice?
Thanks, choco, but I am used to it. Not the first oldie to unexpectedly insult me on this forum. Kind of proves my (admittedly shallow) point about the dominant personalities in the OR. ;)
 
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As a medical student I spent a lot of time comparing these two actually, because in terms of lifestyle they are relatively similar.

Psych-

1-You have to be ok with sitting there talking/coaxing info out of mentally ill people who, on occasion, are also violent.
2- you have to be ok with spending a large proportion of time writing long-winded h&p's and progress notes.
3-its a relatively sedentary specialty. And your workflow is slower-paced. You'll spend more time on each patient.
4-You have to be ok with rounding.
5-You'll fight to be reimbursed for a lot of stuff. This is a unique challenge in psych. The American healthcare system doesn't take psych as seriously as other more concrete specialties.
6- You have to be ok with delayed gratification. Some of the medications you'll use will take forever to work (weeks) or wont work at all.
7-ECT is basically the only billable procedure in psych. Although I know a few psychiatrists who make a great living basically doing nothing but ECT.
8- You have to be ok with the stigma of psychiatry. Just about every specialty has a stigma attached.
9-great hours. Great lifestyle. Yearly salary isnt great, but if you break it down by hour and stress level, its actually pretty good.
10-variety of fellowship options including pain. Although I cant help but think that its probably harder to get into from psych than from anesthesia, but thats purely speculation.
11-Less therapeutic options than anesthesia.

Anesthesia-

1)you have to be ok with not owning patients. You are providing a very useful service and you have to able to get satisfaction from that level of care.
2-much faster pace that psych. More time pressures. Some people thrive in this setting. Others think the OR is too stressful.
3-you have to like doing lots of procedures. But you get to bill for them too, which is why...
4-its generally better payed than psych.
5-wide variety of practice setting and structures. Very controllable lifestyle. If you wanna work a ton and make a ton, you can do that. If you want to work less and still make pretty good money you can do that too.
6-way less paperwork in most practice settings.
7-Far less rounding on patients (unless you go into critical care) and your planning/executing a plan is largely independent.
8-have to be able to let tough personalities roll off your shoulder, i.e. crna's and surgeons.
9- the money/work ratio is pretty good compared to most specialties in my opinion.
10-instant gratification. You push a drug and watch it work. You deliver a therapy and watch it work. Its pretty cool.
11-high therapeutic value. There is a wide variety of stuff we can do to help our patients out.
12-And for the most part, your patients will like you.
13-have to be ok with people misunderstanding your specialty/what you do. But you can offset this with a little patience and patient education.
14- you have to be good at crisis management. When the **** hits the fan in anesthesia, your patients life is imminently dependent on your quick troubleshooting and decision making.


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Clearly. Who wouldn't be? Given the alternatives, anesthesia is the best. I stand by my post being pretty accurate though.


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Naive and biased would be the right words. I especially liked the part about "very controllable lifestyle". :rofl:

And you're old and jaded. Say what you will. I still stand by it. I know lots of anesthesiologists who have achieved their ideal lifestyle and are very happy with their choice. If you're a "grass is always greener elsewhere" type of person, then nothing will ever make you happy, and I suggest a change in mindset.


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You are a resident Tesla. There is a lot you don't know. Chill out.
These days, paperwork is about cutting, pasting and changing a couple of lines. If at all.
Psych is becoming lucrative and lifestyle beats anesthesia everyday of the week!
 
One of my older cousins is a psychiatrist living in a very nice part of the nation. He started out making around $225k-$250k, now he's at $300k. Works about 35-40 hours per week. M-F. Regular hours. Minimal call. He could work more, but he doesn't want to.

He bought a couple of real estate properties and I think he's trying to turn that into passive income. I think he wants to retire early (he's now 40).

Personally, psychiatry isn't for me, but if you like psychiatry, then it seems like a great specialty.
 
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You are a resident Tesla. There is a lot you don't know. Chill out.
These days, paperwork is about cutting, pasting and changing a couple of lines. If at all.
Psych is becoming lucrative and lifestyle beats anesthesia everyday of the week!

You're so right. But I wasn't born yesterday either. I like psych. Could be great career. I even considered it at one point. And yes, you can make money. But I still stand by my appraisal.


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Tesla, while I appreciate your help, I do think you were slightly biased. I was kind of hoping for equal numbers of pros and cons to see which "cons" mattered to me more. I may be a medical student, and while it's true I don't know much, many attendings have told me that if I look hard enough, I can find a 7-3 M-F gig. However, those hours are the norm in psychiatry. I could be wrong, but it seems like anesthesiology was a very lucrative specialty (hence once considered ROAD), but because of a lot of BS from external sources (CRNA push, bureaucracy, etc.), it just isn't the same field it used to be. When you paint a picture that it's the same, it's just misleading (not just anesthesia though, radiology has taken a big hit, too, and is no longer what it used to be).

Again, I'm just a 4th year. I am just repeating what I have heard from attendings, rather than personal experience :)
 
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Tesla, while I appreciate your help, I do think you were slightly biased. I was kind of hoping for equal numbers of pros and cons to see which "cons" mattered to me more. I may be a medical student, and while it's true I don't know much, many attendings have told me that if I look hard enough, I can find a 7-3 M-F gig. However, those hours are the norm in psychiatry. I could be wrong, but it seems like anesthesiology was a very lucrative specialty (hence once considered ROAD), but because of a lot of BS from external sources (CRNA push, bureaucracy, etc.), it just isn't the same field it used to be. When you paint a picture that it's the same, it's just misleading (not just anesthesia though, radiology has taken a big hit, too, and is no longer what it used to be).

Again, I'm just a 4th year. I am just repeating what I have heard from attendings, rather than personal experience :)

Hey man, suit yourself. I gave psychiatry a good hard look. Did several psych rotations in 3rd/4th year. My comparison is but one perspective, but thats how I arrived at my decision. I decided on anesthesia. Couldn't be happier. Even with all its flaws. I enjoy going to work everyday. In the end its all about the pursuit of happiness. I hope you find the same.


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Hey man, suit yourself. I gave psychiatry a good hard look. Did several psych rotations in 3rd/4th year. My comparison is but one perspective, but thats how I arrived at my decision. I decided on anesthesia. Couldn't be happier. Even with all its flaws. I enjoy going to work everyday. In the end its all about the pursuit of happiness. I hope you find the same.
That's great. But do realize that you are still a resident, hence sheltered. There is a reason most CRNAs love their jobs. ;)

Don't think that most people who are not happy with their current job (market) must have sucked as a resident, or be in the wrong field. There are very few people in any profession who tap dance to work, who would even pay to be allowed to practice it. The rest are happy (or not) based on a combination of factors, mostly out of their control and dependent on the local job market. As I said, I love critical care, just not for 12 hours non-stop without a break every day, and for every 2nd weekend in the hospital (at least not as an employee). Give me a decent workload (where I can stop and think, or even have a coffee) and a quasinormal lifestyle, and compensate me significantly more than the guy who just stool-sits long bread-and-butter surgeries from 7 to 3, and I am happy. Make me feel like just another worthless cog, and I am not. There is an entire science about keeping employees happy. When they are not, it's mostly not their fault (especially in the case of highly-educated people), it's usually the management. That's why most self-employed people are happier even when they make less.

Those of us who discourage students from going into anesthesiology don't do it just because we are unhappy with our current jobs. We do it because we don't see the light at the end of the tunnel anymore, meaning we don't see much better jobs, either in the present or the future (especially because of provider inflation). Relocating to some promised land sounds so easy, except it never is, especially in a two earner family, and those promised lands are shrinking fast (especially once everybody finds out about them, or they become just another AMC territory). Also, getting a good job later in the career is more and more difficult; most employers love young happy puppies (like yourself, no offense). But a career in a profession is a marathon, not a sprint, and just because the beginning of it looks nice and easy and flat doesn't mean that it's not full of hills and mountains and deserts later. The word I would mostly associate with American anesthesiology is doomed (the provider inflation will only get worse and will destroy every market).
 
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That's great. But do realize that you are still a resident, hence sheltered. There is a reason most CRNAs love their jobs. ;)

Don't think that most people who are not happy with their current job (market) must have sucked as a resident, or be in the wrong field. There are very few people in any profession who tap dance to work, who would even pay to be allowed to practice it. The rest are happy (or not) based on a combination of factors, mostly out of their control and dependent on the local job market. As I said, I love critical care, just not for 12 hours non-stop without a break every day, and for every 2nd weekend in the hospital (at least not as an employee). Give me a decent workload (where I can stop and think, or even have a coffee) and a quasinormal lifestyle, and compensate me significantly more than the guy who just stool-sits long bread-and-butter surgeries from 7 to 3, and I am happy. Make me feel like just another worthless cog, and I am not. There is an entire science about keeping employees happy. When they are not, it's mostly not their fault (especially in the case of highly-educated people), it's usually the management. That's why most self-employed people are happier even when they make less.

Those of us who discourage students from going into anesthesiology don't do it just because we are unhappy with our current jobs. We do it because we don't see the light at the end of the tunnel anymore, meaning we don't see much better jobs, either in the present or the future (especially because of provider inflation). Relocating to some promised land sounds so easy, except it never is, especially in a two earner family, and those promised lands are shrinking fast (especially once everybody finds out about them, or they become just another AMC territory). Also, getting a good job later in the career is more and more difficult; most employers love young happy puppies (like yourself, no offense). But a career in a profession is a marathon, not a sprint, and just because the beginning of it looks nice and easy and flat doesn't mean that it's not full of hills and mountains and deserts later. The word I would mostly associate with American anesthesiology is doomed (the provider inflation will only get worse and will destroy every market).

Wow... even more jaded than I previously thought. You entered a beast of a field. The reasons you highlighted, are the very reasons why I, personally, would never go into critical care. To be completely honest, the thought of it makes me want to vomit, no offense to you. With regard to being a resident, what you're saying is true in one aspect, but again, this has a lot to do with one's attitude. I'm sorry, but I don't think anesthesia is doomed. And frankly, if I was as unhappy as you sound, I would have found a way out of critical care, and maybe even medicine altogether, long ago. I may be a resident, but I had jobs in all kinds of other fields outside of medicine before finally settling here. From my perspective, the grass is not greener elsewhere. Its not 100% green anywhere. Im aware of the downsides of anesthesiology, the economic trends within the field, etc. I'd far rather be in anesthesia than psych, although I could do psych if I had to. Its not a bad gig. I wouldn't go into critical care if my life depended on it.


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I completely understand. The reason I did not do pain was... psych. That doesn't mean psych is not a good/better field for somebody who likes it.

If you find much beyond the social or paperwork issues make you vomit in critical care, you may be in the wrong field even now. The main difference between you and a CRNA is your medical knowledge, especially the critical care medicine part of anesthesiology. (There is a reason most intensivists in the world are also anesthesiologists.) A lot of the rest is monkey see, monkey do, ripe for midlevel encroachment. I am sorry you can't see it; neither did all the American IT workers whose jobs were outsourced to developing countries,, or to high school grads, in the 2000's. Neither did all the automobile industry and other manufacturing workers. It won't happen overnight but, if I still were in my 20's, I would definitely not bet my career against the forces of capitalism.

The grass is not 100% green anywhere. But to say it can't be greener in another specialty is just ignorance, no offense. You should see CRNAs taking care independently of ASA 3-4 patients in community hospitals, with the anesthesiologist just putting out the occasional fires, even while signing for "medical direction". You should see practices replacing anesthesiologists en masse with CRNAs and ACT. Academia is an ivory tower. The real world is much closer to independent CRNA practice, even to CRNA management of some anesthesiologists, than you have been told. It's gotten so far because of greed, and that's one force in the Universe you shouldn't bet against. If you don't respect me and my opinions, listen to Blade.

Still the fact remains: we are producing way more anesthesia providers than the market will be able to absorb. That's a recipe for disaster in any field.
 
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The grass is not 100% green anywhere. But to say it can't be greener in another specialty is just ignorance, no offense. You should see CRNAs taking care independently of ASA 3-4 patients in community hospitals, with the anesthesiologist just putting out the occasional fires, even while signing for "medical direction". You should see practices replacing anesthesiologists en masse with CRNAs and ACT. Academia is an ivory tower. The real world is much closer to independent CRNA practice, even to CRNA management of some anesthesiologists, than you have been told. It's gotten so far because of greed, and that's one force in the Universe you shouldn't bet against. If you don't respect me and my opinions, listen to Blade.

I thought I was in the real world. Where is this happening? I go to meetings and haven't encountered a single person that this has happened to. Has anyone on this board been replaced by a CRNA? Show of hands.
 
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I thought I was in the real world. Where is this happening? I go to meetings and haven't encountered a single person that this has happened to. Has anyone on this board been replaced by a CRNA? Show of hands.
I have been recently told more than once that a group (especially AMC) is only looking for an anesthesiologist because they can't get enough CRNAs. My former academic group hasn't been hiring docs for a good while, just CRNAs. They use long-term locum CRNAs rather than employed docs. It's all about the money. ;)

This is East Coast reality, at least in my neck of woods. Do the math, people: they will only need 1 doc per 3-4 CRNAs (or more). Where will all those new graduates go? Wherever CRNAs don't want to. The best of jobs, I am sure. ;)

Btw, in my "real world", there are exactly two skillsets that really matter: cardiac and regional. Peds and pain just rarely.
 
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I completely understand. The reason I did not do pain was... psych. That doesn't mean psych is not a good/better field for somebody who likes it.

If you find much beyond the social or paperwork issues make you vomit in critical care, you may be in the wrong field even now. The main difference between you and a CRNA is your medical knowledge, especially the critical care medicine part of anesthesiology. (There is a reason most intensivists in the world are also anesthesiologists.) A lot of the rest is monkey see, monkey do, ripe for midlevel encroachment. I am sorry you can't see it; neither did all the American IT workers whose jobs were outsourced to developing countries,, or to high school grads, in the 2000's. Neither did all the automobile industry and other manufacturing workers. It won't happen overnight but, if I still were in my 20's, I would definitely not bet my career against the forces of capitalism.

The grass is not 100% green anywhere. But to say it can't be greener in another specialty is just ignorance, no offense. You should see CRNAs taking care independently of ASA 3-4 patients in community hospitals, with the anesthesiologist just putting out the occasional fires, even while signing for "medical direction". You should see practices replacing anesthesiologists en masse with CRNAs and ACT. Academia is an ivory tower. The real world is much closer to independent CRNA practice, even to CRNA management of some anesthesiologists, than you have been told. It's gotten so far because of greed, and that's one force in the Universe you shouldn't bet against. If you don't respect me and my opinions, listen to Blade.

Still the fact remains: we are producing way more anesthesia providers than the market will be able to absorb. That's a recipe for disaster in any field.

With regard to your comment about psych, I agree completely and never said anything to the contrary. If you reread what I wrote you might ascertain that I basically said even I could do psych and be happy. If somebody is happy in "X" field then they belong in "X" field and I respect that wholly. So no ignorance here, Thanks!

With regard to your critical care comment, let me clarify that my aversion has nothing to do with knowledge base or paperwork. Its that I find it to be a special sort of abomination. All too often I find myself thinking "what the hell are we doing here?". If you catch my drift. Again, no offense, this is but one speck of stardust's opinion.

Finally, regarding your comments on the economic trends within the field- I'm so sorry that I'm a bit skeptical of your telling of the future. But just to confirm, I am. I understand the trends you're spitting, I just don't think they're going to come and eat us all alive like you do. BUT, in the minute chance you're correct, and as I said before I'll be prepared to adapt. Thats the great thing about medicine, theres a ton of variety, and a ton of opportunity. If one field fails, you can always take up another. Or multiple at once. I have a contingency plan, but I doubt I'll have to use it. Besides, by the time these trends you speak of devour us all, I plan to have enough passive income being generated that I wont have to work at all.

Its really not a matter of respecting or disrespecting your opinion. But I do respect the fact that you have an opinion. I just don't believe your prediction will come to fruition quite like you think it will, and therefore I simply, and respectfully, disagree with your "opinion".


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@FFP I appreciate your advice, and @TeslaCoil I appreicate yours as well. At the end of the day, I'm a 4th year, with 5 days left to accept or decline 2 months of away rotations. It's impossible to predict how the field will be in 10 years, but I'm starting to lean towards maybe pursuing something else. I have seen multiple classmates switch out from anesthesia, which doesn't help. Is the job market truly as bad as you say? I will tell you what I think is most important to me: I want to practice wherever I want, while working 35-40 hour weeks, making 250. That's my end goal.
 
@FFP I appreciate your advice, and @TeslaCoil I appreicate yours as well. At the end of the day, I'm a 4th year, with 5 days left to accept or decline 2 months of away rotations. It's impossible to predict how the field will be in 10 years, but I'm starting to lean towards maybe pursuing something else. I have seen multiple classmates switch out from anesthesia, which doesn't help. Is the job market truly as bad as you say? I will tell you what I think is most important to me: I want to practice wherever I want, while working 35-40 hour weeks, making 250. That's my end goal.

Dude I'm telling you the job market is not bad. At all. I don't know anybody who had trouble finding a job coming out of residency. Go here and see for yourself: www.gaswork.com Your criteria are easily satisfiable in anesthesia. Another field I highly recommend looking into is emergency medicine. Great field.


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@jack.jaret rather than picking a job based on your hourly wage, do something you actually enjoy. I think others have said this, but who knows what the future holds for any field.

These two fields are so different it's weird you are interested in both, but I think you should spend some time in both specialties and see what you enjoy.

Finally, take what caree advice from jaded overworked people and hyper-idealistic residents with a grain of salt. You're better served by reaching out to faculty and your medical school for some perspective.

I love the work of Anesthesiology and 250K for 40 hours (those jobs aren't hard to find, you just might max out there) is more than just about all of my friends in primary care make. That's so much more money than I grew up with and I don't need that new Lambo so I'd be very happy, but definitely not if I'd made 400 for the previous 10 years (and this is true in every job facing downward salary prospects, it very rarely happens). On the other hand I'd need probably $2 mil to be a psychiatrist since I abhor the work and the thought of managing an inpatient psych or rehab unit makes me nauesested
 
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Dude I'm telling you the job market is not bad. At all. I don't know anybody who had trouble finding a job coming out of residency. Go here and see for yourself: www.gaswork.com Your criteria are easily satisfiable in anesthesia. Another field I highly recommend looking into is emergency medicine. Great field.


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I agree with this assessment as long as you're relatively geographically flexible. Keep in mind too that gaswork jobs tend to be some of the worst ones available so generally speaking you're only going to go up from there.
I also think the AMC gig is going to be up sooner rather than later. Acquisitions will slow down. They are an unnecessary middle man skimming off the top, which leaves less to pay quality staff. This is not always the case but I'm hearing about more and more bid outs on their contracts. Once the 5 year (or whatever was negotiated) required work period for old partners is up, it can get hairy at the places they've come in to.
 
Dude I'm telling you the job market is not bad. At all. I don't know anybody who had trouble finding a job coming out of residency. Go here and see for yourself: www.gaswork.com Your criteria are easily satisfiable in anesthesia. Another field I highly recommend looking into is emergency medicine. Great field.


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Just an FYI: in my state, there are many ads advertising the same job 2-3-4 times. You wouldn't know it, unless you know the market and carefully read through the ads. Anything that comes through a recruitment firm is probably a duplicate, if not worse. When I exclude recruitment agencies, only 40% of the jobs remain. And when I also exclude national groups and management firms... 10%!!! Yeah, a lot of good jobs out there.

Also, some ads are just "permanent". The groups are just out fishing, for a very good (rarely) or cheap (way more frequently) employee. The latter is also the reason new grads have much less trouble finding a job.
 
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Just an FYI: in my state, there are many ads advertising the same job 2-3-4 times. You wouldn't know it, unless you know the market and carefully read through the ads. Anything that comes through a recruitment firm is probably a duplicate, if not worse. When I exclude recruitment agencies, only 40% of the jobs remain. And when I also exclude national groups and management firms... 10%!!! Yeah, a lot of good jobs out there.

Also, some ads are just "permanent". The groups are just out fishing, for a very good (rarely) or cheap (way more frequently) employee. The latter is also the reason new grads have much less trouble finding a job.

Im sorry, but I'm not buying this. Again, I don't know anybody having trouble finding a pretty good permanent gig. Partnership tracks included.


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Im sorry, but I'm not buying this. Again, I don't know anybody having trouble finding a pretty good permanent gig. Partnership tracks included.


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Good for you.

Again, I am always talking about my neck of the woods. Which, like cancer, has a very strong historical tendency to metastasize to other people's.
 
I agree with this assessment as long as you're relatively geographically flexible. Keep in mind too that gaswork jobs tend to be some of the worst ones available so generally speaking you're only going to go up from there.
I also think the AMC gig is going to be up sooner rather than later. Acquisitions will slow down. They are an unnecessary middle man skimming off the top, which leaves less to pay quality staff. This is not always the case but I'm hearing about more and more bid outs on their contracts. Once the 5 year (or whatever was negotiated) required work period for old partners is up, it can get hairy at the places they've come in to.
In my area it's the opposite. What's happening more is that the better and locally-managed AMC will take the contract from the worse one, or even from PP groups.

There are simply fewer and fewer local groups remaining to bid against an AMC, and the employed anesthesiologists will never just waltz in and bid on a contract, because that needs a lot of know-how that they/we just don't have. Again, just look at the EM market: the management companies have been around for decades, and there is no sign of them dying; au contraire, they are now taking over new specialties.

Unless oligopolies become illegal, these corporations are here to stay for the rest of our professional lives.
 
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http://www.haverfordhealthcare.com/...iology-Practice-Acquisitions-January-2017.pdf

Look at the acquisitions: Numbers 2 and 22 (Sevo's group is number 22).

Also, look at the map of the USA and search for jobs in States with ZERO acquisitions (no guarantees but it makes sense).

"Over the past several years, the majority of anesthesiology practice acquisitions have taken place along the eastern seaboard. The state of Texas has also experienced a significant amount of activity. Most of the practice acquirers have expressed to Haverford a desire to expand their presence geographically by completing acquisitions in other states. Despite the substantial number of transactions that have been completed over the past few years, the map below illustrates the substantial room for future growth that is available to the national anesthesia companies throughout much of the United States."
 
In my area it's the opposite. What's happening more is that the better and locally-managed AMC will take the contract from the worse one, or even from PP groups.

There are simply fewer and fewer local groups remaining to bid against an AMC, and the employed anesthesiologists will never just waltz in and bid on a contract, because that needs a lot of know-how that they/we just don't have. Again, just look at the EM market: the management companies have been around for decades, and there is no sign of them dying; au contraire, they are now taking over new specialties.

Unless oligopolies become illegal, these corporations are here to stay for the rest of our professional lives.

I believe that. Some areas are AMC wastelands...but there are tons of areas of the country that aren't. So generally speaking, the more geographically flexible one is, the more able you are to avoid this. Not sure the AMC will go extinct, but the acquisitions will flatten out IMO. My crystal ball could be wrong of course, but that's my bet.
 
I believe that. Some areas are AMC wastelands...but there are tons of areas of the country that aren't. So generally speaking, the more geographically flexible one is, the more able you are to avoid this. Not sure the AMC will go extinct, but the acquisitions will flatten out IMO. My crystal ball could be wrong of course, but that's my bet.

As long as the senior partners can net a few million dollars before retirement the sales to AMCs will continue. The payouts are too big for a 55-62 year to ignore especially with the reduced taxes on the long term gains from the sale. AMCs may need to pay up some more but the sales will go on because it's human nature to be greedy. The latest acquisitions have been "primo" groups out West with an outstanding payer mix. Why do you think the partners sold out? (answer in the video below)

 
As long as the senior partners can net a few million dollars before retirement the sales to AMCs will continue. The payouts are too big for a 55-62 year to ignore especially with the reduced taxes on the long term gains from the sale. AMCs may need to pay up some more but the sales will go on because it's human nature to be greedy. The latest acquisitions have been "primo" groups out West with an outstanding payer mix. Why do you think the partners sold out? (answer in the video below)



Yes, IF a few partners can net enough. There are lots of groups that aren't lopsided enough like that to make it worth it to them. Our group and many others I know of have been approached, but the number isn't anywhere near worth it because of how we are structured.
 
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