AMA - Practice startups and early retirement

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Thank you for sharing your story and your insights, TanMan.

I am located in NY, and planning to start my own practice in Queens (residential area of NYC.) Queens is an over-saturated and competitive area, but NYC is the only option for me (due to family issues…)

I am in the earliest stage (planning/budgeting process.) All your inputs greatly helped me planning with my very tight budget (saved enough money, but the fixed cost (i.e. office rent) is very high. I haven’t considered financing yet.) I came up with few questions to ask.

1. I paid no rent until the construction was complete. Rent is 3750/month initially for 3000 sq ft. (we eventually expanded to 4500) I am going to estimate the costs since I don't have exact figures of each one (Total was about 100k+, but there were add-ons along the way after completion of construction). Chairs and delivery systems were 5k each *5 = 25k......

Can you please provide little more information about 5 x $5,000 chairs and delivery system?

Which brand and model did you buy? Were they new or refurbished? Did you get 5 identical chairs and system for all ops? Are they reliable enough to handle the procedures for your busy practice? Do you still use the same chairs? (If not, how long do they last? Did you get the same replacement or upgrade them?) If you could go back to your start-up phase, would you buy the same or would you invest more for better chairs and system? Do you recommend any seller or brand/model?


Dental equipment: Bought a used vacuum off ebay, used Nomad Xray (made every room into an xray room), Industrial compressor at 1k with a drying unit (400), refurbished digital pano (either 12-15k, not sure), used Gendex sensors (bargains at 1k each, if you time it right), used electric handpieces (NSK) from graduating dental students, ...

Electric handpieces - great investment, cuts faster, less chairtime

I am using an air handpiece. My current job doesn't provide electric one. Only electric one I’ve used was the electric low speed from my dental school. When you mention electric handpieces, I am not sure if you are referring to the one that I used before...

Are you still using the used NSK electric handpieces, or did you buy better one?
Would you mind recommending me one so I can try?

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Thank you for sharing your story and your insights, TanMan.

I am located in NY, and planning to start my own practice in Queens (residential area of NYC.) Queens is an over-saturated and competitive area, but NYC is the only option for me (due to family issues…)

I am in the earliest stage (planning/budgeting process.) All your inputs greatly helped me planning with my very tight budget (saved enough money, but the fixed cost (i.e. office rent) is very high. I haven’t considered financing yet.) I came up with few questions to ask.

Can you please provide little more information about 5 x $5,000 chairs and delivery system?

Which brand and model did you buy? Were they new or refurbished? Did you get 5 identical chairs and system for all ops? Are they reliable enough to handle the procedures for your busy practice? Do you still use the same chairs? (If not, how long do they last? Did you get the same replacement or upgrade them?) If you could go back to your start-up phase, would you buy the same or would you invest more for better chairs and system? Do you recommend any seller or brand/model?

I am using an air handpiece. My current job doesn't provide electric one. Only electric one I’ve used was the electric low speed from my dental school. When you mention electric handpieces, I am not sure if you are referring to the one that I used before...

Are you still using the used NSK electric handpieces, or did you buy better one?
Would you mind recommending me one so I can try?

I purchased beaverstate chairs with rear delivery systems in my hygiene or chair delivery systems in my ops. I don't use overhead lights, cuspidors, or much else except chair + delivery system.

5 identical chairs (I believe that they were represented as new to me, but probably were refurbished for the price), delivery system varied depending on either hygiene/ops. I think I replaced 3 of the chairs already; upgraded them to something better (Marus). I like Marus so far. If I were to go back to the startup phase, it depends on how much capital you have. I say start cheap, then plan on replacing once your office starts booming. Costs more, but you're less likely to go out of business in case you run out of cash. Should take a few months before you start raking in the big bucks.

I am still using the same NSK control units (The original NL400's, the new side has the new nano 400's. I did have to buy a lot more handpieces though. I have at least 15 or more handpieces since I need to cycle through a lot per day. If you're going for cheap startup, get a used NSK NL400 from ebay. I rarely use low speed/latch types. I like straight handpieces to polish emax crowns
 
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At first it does, but just finish your requirements fast while your colleagues are messing around. That way, you can have a more relaxed, yet productive 4th year.

Financially do you think it is a better decision becoming a dentist over a doctor?
-The business aspect of Dentistry allows you to probably rack in a good amount of revenue compared to little MD offices, however dental school costs more than any health care field so how did you go into dentistry with the plan of making so much money when you knew you would be in ridiculous debt?
- Hours work better for dentists, unlike MDs but MDs have more specialties to choose from and can make more money that way as well.
Would you have pursued Medicine, with the same end goal (get money and retire quick as possible), would it have worked out the same way business wise? Also what did you specialize in?
 
Financially do you think it is a better decision becoming a dentist over a doctor?
-The business aspect of Dentistry allows you to probably rack in a good amount of revenue compared to little MD offices, however dental school costs more than any health care field so how did you go into dentistry with the plan of making so much money when you knew you would be in ridiculous debt?
- Hours work better for dentists, unlike MDs but MDs have more specialties to choose from and can make more money that way as well.
Would you have pursued Medicine, with the same end goal (get money and retire quick as possible), would it have worked out the same way business wise? Also what did you specialize in?

I think a dentist is better overall. You're done after 4 years.
1. The amount of debt we accumulate as dentists is not significant compared to our lifetime earnings. I wish people would stop fearing their student loan debt and see it as the admission price to an exclusive profession that will yield a lot more return.
2. I wouldn't pursue medicine. Requires more time, effort, and not necessarily higher return. I think the business aspects of going into medicine are slightly different, but goes back to the type of consumer you are targeting. I am not a specialist, I am a general dentist.

TanMan,

When do you expect to fully retire? In 5 years? 10?

When you do... How much income do you expect to make from your passive income a month?

Retire from dentistry in 3 years, maybe work an additional 5 years (not as a dentist), but with a lot more flexibility, traveling, and freedom.

At least 40-50k/month in passive income. It should be enough to sustain an adequate lifestyle.
 
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I think a dentist is better overall. You're done after 4 years.
1. The amount of debt we accumulate as dentists is not significant compared to our lifetime earnings. I wish people would stop fearing their student loan debt and see it as the admission price to an exclusive profession that will yield a lot more return.
2. I wouldn't pursue medicine. Requires more time, effort, and not necessarily higher return. I think the business aspects of going into medicine are slightly different, but goes back to the type of consumer you are targeting. I am not a specialist, I am a general dentist.



Retire from dentistry in 3 years, maybe work an additional 5 years (not as a dentist), but with a lot more flexibility, traveling, and freedom.

At least 40-50k/month in passive income. It should be enough to sustain an adequate lifestyle.
$40-50k a month? So that's $25-30k after all taxes?

Assuming 0 debt, how do you plan with your $1k a day Budget? Save most of it? Assuming you are not married, don't have kids, etc?
 
I think a dentist is better overall. You're done after 4 years.
1. The amount of debt we accumulate as dentists is not significant compared to our lifetime earnings. I wish people would stop fearing their student loan debt and see it as the admission price to an exclusive profession that will yield a lot more return.
2. I wouldn't pursue medicine. Requires more time, effort, and not necessarily higher return. I think the business aspects of going into medicine are slightly different, but goes back to the type of consumer you are targeting. I am not a specialist, I am a general dentist.



Retire from dentistry in 3 years, maybe work an additional 5 years (not as a dentist), but with a lot more flexibility, traveling, and freedom.

At least 40-50k/month in passive income. It should be enough to sustain an adequate lifestyle.
So only like 1.5 million nest-egg with a conservative SWR?

I thought it would be a lot higher given how high production your office is and how much you can sell that for potentially down the line along with all the side business you are engaged with.
 
So only like 1.5 million nest-egg with a conservative SWR?

I thought it would be a lot higher given how high production your office is and how much you can sell that for potentially down the line along with all the side business you are engaged with.
It would have to be significantly higher than 1.5 million, his goal was 40-50k a month not year
 
It would have to be significantly higher than 1.5 million, his goal was 40-50k a month not year
Yeah that sounds more like TanMan now lol. I misread that by a long shot. He'll need like 15mil at a 4% SWR if doing it by mix of stocks/bonds. But it sounds like a lot will come from his side-business and so I suppose the same rules don't necessarily apply if he's confident his returns will remain high. Though along that line you might get hit with the income tax instead of capital gains tax that most early retirement people get hit with instead
 
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The scary thing about his plan is that even with 5m (his minimum target according to this AMA) in savings, 500k-600k/yr in withdrawal won't carry him into his 60s and 70s...
Do you not understand what passive income means?
 
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$40-50k a month? So that's $25-30k after all taxes?

Assuming 0 debt, how do you plan with your $1k a day Budget? Save most of it? Assuming you are not married, don't have kids, etc?

Approximately 25-30k, I don't need much to have a good life. At 1k/day, I should be able to eat and enjoy life whether or not it requires money. Just having money takes the idea of worrying about money out of my mind. I'm not going to budget utilizing 1k/day to the max, if I need it, I have it, if I don't I'm not going to spend it for the sake of spending it. I don't need extreme luxury, i.e I don't need a private jet, business/first class is good enough, don't need a penthouse suite, etc...

Yeah that sounds more like TanMan now lol. I misread that by a long shot. He'll need like 15mil at a 4% SWR if doing it by mix of stocks/bonds. But it sounds like a lot will come from his side-business and so I suppose the same rules don't necessarily apply if he's confident his returns will remain high. Though along that line you might get hit with the income tax instead of capital gains tax that most early retirement people get hit with instead

Unfortunately, taxes are a way of life and the IRS is one of the entities you never want to mess around with. Makes no sense to not worry about money, but then worry about the IRS on your back. There are legal strategies to reducing your taxes for people who want to retire early, but I tend to be a bit more conservative. There's only so much you can do to legally reduce your taxes besides renouncing your US citizenship, but even then, they have tried to put a stop to that as a tax strategy.

I think 5M in personal assets should be sufficient, as I have my exit strategy planned for my companies. Planning for a golden parachute and lifetime consulting fees from companies.

The scary thing about his plan is that even with 5m (his minimum target according to this AMA) in savings, 500k-600k/yr in withdrawal won't carry him into his 60s and 70s...

500-600k/yr indicates I'm not going to withdraw anything from the principal, if I don't use the money, it stays put.
 
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Off topic, I am currently a D1 and am considering applying for my school's DMD/MBA program where I will spend next year gaining my MBA. My question, for either @Cold Front or @TanMan, is gaining the MBA worth it in your opinion? Obviously, having the additional business knowledge would be an advantage but is it worth spending a full year of potential production in PP?
 
Off topic, I am currently a D1 and am considering applying for my school's DMD/MBA program where I will spend next year gaining my MBA. My question, for either @Cold Front or @TanMan, is gaining the MBA worth it in your opinion? Obviously, having the additional business knowledge would be an advantage but is it worth spending a full year of potential production in PP?
The short answer is no. MBA may help being successful more outside dentistry, but within dentistry, you can be successful without a MBA.
 
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Approximately 25-30k, I don't need much to have a good life. At 1k/day, I should be able to eat and enjoy life whether or not it requires money. Just having money takes the idea of worrying about money out of my mind. I'm not going to budget utilizing 1k/day to the max, if I need it, I have it, if I don't I'm not going to spend it for the sake of spending it. I don't need extreme luxury, i.e I don't need a private jet, business/first class is good enough, don't need a penthouse suite, etc...
I have crossed the $25-30k a month in passive income myself, but I became like the Jeremy Renner character in the movie Hurt Locker, who keeps volunteering to go back to the war zone, even after his service has ended. Dentistry became in a way my morning coffee too, I need to be in that environment where I need to be seeing some action in my life (emergencies, staff that I have been working with for 5+ years, the whole quarter back position at work). Granted I'm working 4 days a week now, if I completely stepped aside and forced myself to do something else, I wouldn't get the same rush I get in my body and mind that I currently get from dentistry. Sounds silly in a way, but I think that's how I feel. If you asked me this 3 or so years ago, I would tell you I would quit. I guess I reached a plateau in a way, a good work and life balance, while at one point it was more work than life, and it got to me to consider quitting if I did get the chance. I probably don't love dentistry more than you, but dentistry has become a little easier and too predictable to do over the years that I can still get up everyday and go back to the office to do it, and make lot more money doing it than leave and live off on a passive income while I'm still in my 30s.

It will be interesting to see if you will completely cut yourself from dentistry when you reach your goal.
 
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Off topic, I am currently a D1 and am considering applying for my school's DMD/MBA program where I will spend next year gaining my MBA. My question, for either @Cold Front or @TanMan, is gaining the MBA worth it in your opinion? Obviously, having the additional business knowledge would be an advantage but is it worth spending a full year of potential production in PP?
Depends on what you want to do, and what school the MBA is from. But like Cold Front said, chances are the answer is it's not worth it.
 
I'm pretty confused by this thread, I have no interest in dentistry I'm just lurking for fun. You work 35 hours a week and can retire in 8 years of practice with 5m saved in the bank? If you work 35 hours a week why is the average salary for a dentist like 200k (according to google)? Just curious about how it all works. I feel like this is what all the people gunning for money should do, I don't get why anyone would choose medicine for the money over this!
 
Very few things can beat medicine (US MD) when it comes to prestige/respect/cocktail party bragging rights. You also don't have to worry about the business side as a hospital employee as a physician.

I can see your points, but I feel there are a good amount of premeds who beneath all the BS just want the paycheck they think being an MD will give them. Sure some specialists can make 700k-1mil+ depending on where you practice and your business acumen but you have to go through the wringer to get there. Years of 80 hour weeks and then on top of that when you're practicing you're probably working 60 hours a week at least (maybe not forever but definitely at first). Dent seems like the promised land for these guys.
 
Let's say that you had the early retirement goal in mind, before making dental school. Would you consider going to UoP since it's 3 years despite the debt or would you choose to go to a cheaper state school for 4 years?
 
I think a dentist is better overall. You're done after 4 years.
1. The amount of debt we accumulate as dentists is not significant compared to our lifetime earnings. I wish people would stop fearing their student loan debt and see it as the admission price to an exclusive profession that will yield a lot more return.
2. I wouldn't pursue medicine. Requires more time, effort, and not necessarily higher return. I think the business aspects of going into medicine are slightly different, but goes back to the type of consumer you are targeting. I am not a specialist, I am a general dentist.

Yeah I remember some people telling me if it's for the money I would be better off pursuing dentistry. Which I don't mind at all.
 
I think a dentist is better overall. You're done after 4 years.
1. The amount of debt we accumulate as dentists is not significant compared to our lifetime earnings. I wish people would stop fearing their student loan debt and see it as the admission price to an exclusive profession that will yield a lot more return.
2. I wouldn't pursue medicine. Requires more time, effort, and not necessarily higher return. I think the business aspects of going into medicine are slightly different, but goes back to the type of consumer you are targeting. I am not a specialist, I am a general dentist.



Would you consider specializing? Wouldn't it make more money? If you were considering specializing, would you consider med school over dental school, due to more options available or would it be the same ROI type or ordeal? I would assume you could rack more with a specialization.
 
Off topic, I am currently a D1 and am considering applying for my school's DMD/MBA program where I will spend next year gaining my MBA. My question, for either @Cold Front or @TanMan, is gaining the MBA worth it in your opinion? Obviously, having the additional business knowledge would be an advantage but is it worth spending a full year of potential production in PP?

Not for a solo practitioner. If you are going to expand nationwide, maybe, or if you want to work on the administrative/corporate side of corporate dentistry. However, the DDS wouldn't matter as much unless you're looking to be a nationwide dental director of a large DSO. Even then, it opens the door, but you'll still have to work your way up. An MBA in itself is relatively useless.

I have crossed the $25-30k a month in passive income myself, but I became like the Jeremy Renner character in the movie Hurt Locker, who keeps volunteering to go back to the war zone, even after his service has ended. Dentistry became in a way my morning coffee too, I need to be in that environment where I need to be seeing some action in my life (emergencies, staff that I have been working with for 5+ years, the whole quarter back position at work). Granted I'm working 4 days a week now, if I completely stepped aside and forced myself to do something else, I wouldn't get the same rush I get in my body and mind that I currently get from dentistry. Sounds silly in a way, but I think that's how I feel. If you asked me this 3 or so years ago, I would tell you I would quit. I guess I reached a plateau in a way, a good work and life balance, while at one point it was more work than life, and it got to me to consider quitting if I did get the chance. I probably don't love dentistry more than you, but dentistry has become a little easier and too predictable to do over the years that I can still get up everyday and go back to the office to do it, and make lot more money doing it than leave and live off on a passive income while I'm still in my 30s.

It will be interesting to see if you will completely cut yourself from dentistry when you reach your goal.

I think that's where working part-time might not work for me... I like all or nothing, either 0 or 100+. Either I'm working to the max or not working at all. My calculated passive and active income stream will be different. If it works, great, if not, I might work in dentistry until I'm 40 :(.

I'm pretty confused by this thread, I have no interest in dentistry I'm just lurking for fun. You work 35 hours a week and can retire in 8 years of practice with 5m saved in the bank? If you work 35 hours a week why is the average salary for a dentist like 200k (according to google)? Just curious about how it all works. I feel like this is what all the people gunning for money should do, I don't get why anyone would choose medicine for the money over this!

Own your own practice, you'll make way more than 200k/year. If you're an associate for the rest of your life, you'll never be able to retire early. I can't speak for those that go into medicine or what motivates them to do so.

Very few things can beat medicine (US MD) when it comes to prestige/respect/cocktail party bragging rights. You also don't have to worry about the business side as a hospital employee as a physician.

Screw prestige and bragging rights. If you're happy being a highly paid employee, then so be it, but I wouldn't want to spend any more of my prime years in school.

I can see your points, but I feel there are a good amount of premeds who beneath all the BS just want the paycheck they think being an MD will give them. Sure some specialists can make 700k-1mil+ depending on where you practice and your business acumen but you have to go through the wringer to get there. Years of 80 hour weeks and then on top of that when you're practicing you're probably working 60 hours a week at least (maybe not forever but definitely at first). Dent seems like the promised land for these guys.

Definitely, you have to go through a lot to make a lot of money as an MD. Dentistry is a lot easier and less stressful. It's like a specialty built into 3-4 years of school.

Let's say that you had the early retirement goal in mind, before making dental school. Would you consider going to UoP since it's 3 years despite the debt or would you choose to go to a cheaper state school for 4 years?

I would've considered going to UOP, but UOP is a little over 3 years from what I remember (maybe 3.2 or 3.4 years). Number one consideration was the way they test and mandatory attendance. I did not want to be forced to go to class nor take exams every week.
 
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Would you consider specializing? Wouldn't it make more money? If you were considering specializing, would you consider med school over dental school, due to more options available or would it be the same ROI type or ordeal? I would assume you could rack more with a specialization.

No (Edit: I wouldn't consider it now nor after dental school. Had to add this edit because a few pages ago, someone asked for clarification on the same question). You could make more money on average as a specialist, but I think the peak earning potential would be equal to or greater than the specialist peak for a single practice model. In terms of med school v. dental school, the number of choices do not matter so much for me, as the time I need to dedicate to school, how many years I need to work, and the peak earning potential of either choice. You could potentially earn more as an MD/DO specialist, but you'll definitely have to spend more time in residency and school. ROI is shifted because you have less years to work and more debt.
 
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@TanMan Is there any reason a high paid MD specialist couldn't do what you're doing? (assuming there are ones that make around what you make)

I feel like you never hear of a MD doing this, even though I would think some specialists (neurosurg, ortho spine) who can pull close to over over 1 mil would be able to as well. But it seems like I don't hear about it.

Sorry if these are dumb questions, I just think it's interesting!
 
@TanMan Is there any reason a high paid MD specialist couldn't do what you're doing? (assuming there are ones that make around what you make)

I feel like you never hear of a MD doing this, even though I would think some specialists (neurosurg, ortho spine) who can pull close to over over 1 mil would be able to as well. But it seems like I don't hear about it.

Sorry if these are dumb questions, I just think it's interesting!

There's plenty of them and they can definitely make a lot more. They are much older though.
 
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Retirement accounts can be utilized to reduce tax liabilities and maximize your future income.

I do a 401k at my office with profit sharing. I include myself in the program as an employee, so I put away $18k a year, and my office matches 4%. My wife does the same, the office also matches 4% for her. We both get additional funds from the office profit sharing program, so we put away about $75k each year combined. 401k limits usually go up $500 a year for each individual, and there is a $6k limit increase when you reach mid to late 50's. We love index funds, so the rate of return has been great for the past year or so, averaging 9%. Ofcourse the yield rate has been lower in the past, but the long term average historically is 8%.

So compounding effect of $75k a year at +/- 8% over 20-25 years is on track for $5-6M. I don't have to work past age 59 (the earliest you can withdraw from retirement accounts), and withdrawing 5% from the nest is $250-300k a year pre-tax (or $20-25k a month). With all the debt and mortgages paid off, this side of my global portfolio speaks for itself.

Outside retirement accounts, there is a still dental offices income (whether I sell it or find an associate(s)) + commercial buildings income + social security (if it's still around) + other investment = that's going to bring additional income, more than retirement accounts for sure.

Never overlook retirement accounts when you are ready to start putting money away.

Congrats to you and Tanman for being very far ahead of the curve financially.

A question - general investing information and strategies you could research yourself sure (do X with real estate do Y with stocks, etc), but where do you first hear or learn about specific strategies, such as your office 401k matching, etc. From different dental or financial blogs/forums? Courses? Books? And have you learned this mainly on your own or with a financial adviser (and did you start with them, pick them up over time, drop them over time, etc).

Also, probably one of the most important things I'd like to learn for opening my own practice(s) is learning how to take and analyze demographics, especially for my specific field in ortho. It would be great to be able to research things on my own, but so important and with data so possibly convoluted I'd be hard pressed to not go with a reputable demographics company. I know Tan you mentioned you figured it out on your own mainly just through trial & error - did you find it difficult to get the right info (ie # dentists through ADA, yellowpages, worker stats, etc?). General thoughts of just using a demographics company right off the bat?
 
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Specific strategies you come up based on your own research (google/search engines) give you a good launching point. I recall that one of my first financial books was when I was 10 or 11, I read personal finance for dummies. It's a good basic read. I haven't looked too much into 401k matching or any retirement type vehicles due to the liquidity I need from my investments and short/long-term goals. Cold Front will probably be able to help you more with that. Some of the more advanced strategies are provided by a wealth management service company, but those are when your net worth increases. Some of the strategies they employ can be very expensive.

If you look are interested in demographics, I'd say you need to know what questions to ask and understand the market more than anything else. I don't know too much about how demographic companies work, but in your specific field, I would want a company to not just give you demographic information, but also provide interpretations to the information they supply. As I mentioned before, it's not just median/average income, age, gender... there's many variables I would want to know. I would try and understand what market segment does ortho target? Are you looking primarily at teenagers, phase I ortho, adults? I would also want to know how many orthodontists are out there, who they serve, their hours, how they market their practice, how many of them in each category, are they booked far out, etc... That's from a competition perspective. Now, with respect to demographic, I would want to know approx cost of living, mortgage/rent (gives approximate disposable income), household income, distribution of families (is it single parent w/ kids, 2 parent families, couples without children, etc...), age/gender/race distribution; Somewhere along these posts, I think I go into a little more detail.
 
No (Edit: I wouldn't consider it now nor after dental school. Had to add this edit because a few pages ago, someone asked for clarification on the same question). You could make more money on average as a specialist, but I think the peak earning potential would be equal to or greater than the specialist peak for a single practice model. In terms of med school v. dental school, the number of choices do not matter so much for me, as the time I need to dedicate to school, how many years I need to work, and the peak earning potential of either choice. You could potentially earn more as an MD/DO specialist, but you'll definitely have to spend more time in residency and school. ROI is shifted because you have less years to work and more debt.

Could you explain why you had no interest in being a specialist if you think on average they can make more?
 
Could you explain why you had no interest in being a specialist if you think on average they can make more?
Precisely because of the second part you quoted.

If he can earn as much or even more, why spend even more money and time in school? I garner that striving to be "average" is not what he had in mind
 
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Precisely because of the second part you quoted.

If he can earn as much or even more, why spend even more money and time in school? I garner that striving to be "average" is not what he had in mind

The 2 statements seem to be contradictory, on one hand you can make more as a specialist but on the other hand the earning potential is the same? Either way, it's obvious he has both made smart decisions and had a bit of luck.
 
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The 2 statements seem to be contradictory, on one hand you can make more as a specialist but on the other hand the earning potential is the same? Either way, it's obvious he has both made smart decisions and had a bit of luck.

On average specialists make more. But income potential is about what range of income you can make and general dentists have an upper range that is comparable to that of specialists.
 
Because he doesn't want to waste more time in school.

Precisely because of the second part you quoted.

If he can earn as much or even more, why spend even more money and time in school? I garner that striving to be "average" is not what he had in mind

They have essentially answered your question. I don't want to waste anymore time in school, and I thought that the headstart I have on my specialist counterparts would be sufficient to bridge the income gap and make more than then in the long run without having to go through more school.

The 2 statements seem to be contradictory, on one hand you can make more as a specialist but on the other hand the earning potential is the same? Either way, it's obvious he has both made smart decisions and had a bit of luck.

They aren't contradictory. We're talking about maximum potential v. averages. The missing bit here is that the lowest percentile of general dentists make less than the lowest percentile of specialists. This is what drives the GP average down.

On average specialists make more. But income potential is about what range of income you can make and general dentists have an upper range that is comparable to that of specialists.

Yes, that's pretty much the whole point. You don't need to be a specialist to make as much as a specialist (or more).
 
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With the way things are headed, competition for dental school has already increased exponentially = higher prestige, etc. And there are more avenues to get into medicine than dental school (overseas, md, do, etc.)
 
With the way things are headed, competition for dental school has already increased exponentially = higher prestige, etc. And there are more avenues to get into medicine than dental school (overseas, md, do, etc.)

True, but it's still easier than getting into med school. Getting into medical school seems to require a lot of BS (MCAT, tons of volunteering, research, etc...). People are realizing that dentistry has a better life than MD/DO and can match or beat the income of our medical counterparts with a comparably better lifestyle.
 
True, but it's still easier than getting into med school. Getting into medical school seems to require a lot of BS (MCAT, tons of volunteering, research, etc...). People are realizing that dentistry has a better life than MD/DO and can match or beat the income of our medical counterparts with a comparably better lifestyle.

Eh, honestly, if one wanted to go to med school, there is always some way (carrabien, etc.) Dental is more or less either you get in or you don't. You see all these kids with 4.0 masters that get in--they knew it was legit their only shot.
 
Eh, honestly, if one wanted to go to med school, there is always some way (carrabien, etc.) Dental is more or less either you get in or you don't. You see all these kids with 4.0 masters that get in--they knew it was legit their only shot.

I guess I've been out of school for too long... didn't know it was hard to get into dental school these days. Back in my days, medical school was way harder to get into.
 
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True, but it's still easier than getting into med school. Getting into medical school seems to require a lot of BS (MCAT, tons of volunteering, research, etc...). People are realizing that dentistry has a better life than MD/DO and can match or beat the income of our medical counterparts with a comparably better lifestyle.
Yeah... Literally I'm 21 years old and I've done "a lot of BS". DAT with strong scores, hundreds and hundreds of volunteering hours, research in organic chemistry primarily on multi-faceted tandem reaction amine synthesis of prepharmaceuticals, and I've got a 3.96 GPA. I'll be very lucky to get more than 1 acceptance for this cycle. I hope and pray I get at least 1 acceptance, and that's applying to 5 schools.

People already figured out dentistry has a better lifestyle than medicine, and EVERYBODY wants in. I just hope the popularity doesn't take a turn for the worse and ruin it.

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With all due respect sir, 19TS is not a "strong score." Besides, that 3.96 may not be that impressive unless it was earned at a flagship state school or a top50 private school. Majors also matter (i.e. 3.96 psych major vs 3.96 engineering or chem major). As for research, do you actually understand what you are doing and why you are doing or are you just regurgitating what your PI or a postdoc is telling you after a semester's worth of undergrad research? What I'm saying is you may not be as strong of an applicant as you think you are.

Um..Ouch...
 
Yeah... Literally I'm 21 years old and I've done "a lot of BS". DAT with strong scores, hundreds and hundreds of volunteering hours, research in organic chemistry primarily on multi-faceted tandem reaction amine synthesis of prepharmaceuticals, and I've got a 3.96 GPA. I'll be very lucky to get more than 1 acceptance for this cycle. I hope and pray I get at least 1 acceptance, and that's applying to 5 schools.

People already figured out dentistry has a better lifestyle than medicine, and EVERYBODY wants in. I just hope the popularity doesn't take a turn for the worse and ruin it.

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Not going to be as snarky as the above poster, but I think its more important to publish than anything else.

TanMan,

Could you post how fast you were with crown preps and molar endos by the end of your D3 and D4 years and at the end of your first year as an associate dentist? Have you ever been sued by a patient?

In dschool, I think crown preps were 30mins-1 hour and molar endos were 1 appt/3hours (I'm guessing right now on this figure). At the end of first year associate dentist, 10 min or less crown prep, molar endo, about 45 mins chairtime (Also a rough estimate/guess).

Thank goodness I've never been sued.

With all due respect sir, 19TS is not a "strong score." Besides, that 3.96 may not be that impressive unless it was earned at a flagship state school or a top50 private school. Majors also matter (i.e. 3.96 psych major vs 3.96 engineering or chem major). As for research, do you actually understand what you are doing and why you are doing or are you just regurgitating what your PI or a postdoc is telling you after a semester's worth of undergrad research? What I'm saying is you may not be as strong of an applicant as you think you are.

LOL. You do have a point. There's a dime a dozen of those that do undergrad research without understanding what's going on. Publications are the key to make your research count.
 
With all due respect sir, 19TS is not a "strong score." Besides, that 3.96 may not be that impressive unless it was earned at a flagship state school or a top50 private school. Majors also matter (i.e. 3.96 psych major vs 3.96 engineering or chem major). As for research, do you actually understand what you are doing and why you are doing or are you just regurgitating what your PI or a postdoc is telling you after a semester's worth of undergrad research? What I'm saying is you may not be as strong of an applicant as you think you are.
It is a year's worth of research. I actually understand it - it's very basic organic chemistry. I am a biochemistry major at a top tier state school known for churning out high quality chemistry majors who go to excellent graduate programs. Overall, my DAT score is strong. Not very strong, but strong. A 22 PAT shows significant perceptual ability, a 24 reading shows an very strong ability to comprehend and interpret scientific literature, and a 19 TS is probably around a conservative 70th percentile of test takers.

I'm not a psychology major, but it is evident even to my shockingly ordinary intellect that you have some serious self-confidence issues.

Ask the ADCOMs I've spoken with in person, a 21AA is a strong score. Definitely not amazing, but definitely above average.

Also, you're downplaying my research professors work. He's not a PI or a postdoc. He's a well known organic chemist and has been a professor since the 1980's. He's a hard working man that I look up to and doesn't need some jerk down-playing his work. I am just his research student, down-play me all you want.


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I don't know if you've already answered this Tanman, but what are your thoughts about opening a multiple provider office? Is that how your office is run or are you the sole provider?
 
I don't know if you've already answered this Tanman, but what are your thoughts about opening a multiple provider office? Is that how your office is run or are you the sole provider?

I'm a solo practitioner. I am doing as much as I can by myself so I can keep most of the profit. There are a few reasons why I don't hire additional doctors:
1. I don't have enough rooms
2. I can still handle it myself. Why pay someone to do something I can do myself?
3. They might cannibalize my patients if they choose to setup near me in the future
4. I don't want to fix or correct anyone's work unless I'm getting paid for it.

I'm sure there's a lot more reasons besides these, but these are my main points. This is why I don't want to open another office or hire additional doctors. Marginally incremental profit for more work. In a multiple provider office, I have to be HR to the other doctor, pay them a significant chunk that I can do on my own. I am looking into possibly hiring a traveling OS to do 3rd's for me, but I don't know if I want to do any post-ops for them. If I had 20 chairs or more that I could completely fill up, I would consider hiring an associate. Even paying at 30% collections, the profit isn't enough to justify the additional administrative work and risks, and that's why I haven't looked into expanding to 20 chairs. If I could find an associate that would want to work for the long term with me with minimal guidance and take on a similar workload, I'd definitely add another 13 chairs.
 
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It is a year's worth of research. I actually understand it - it's very basic organic chemistry. I am a biochemistry major at a top tier state school known for churning out high quality chemistry majors who go to excellent graduate programs. Overall, my DAT score is strong. Not very strong, but strong. A 22 PAT shows significant perceptual ability, a 24 reading shows an very strong ability to comprehend and interpret scientific literature, and a 19 TS is probably around a conservative 70th percentile of test takers.

I'm not a psychology major, but it is evident even to my shockingly ordinary intellect that you have some serious self-confidence issues.

Ask the ADCOMs I've spoken with in person, a 21AA is a strong score. Definitely not amazing, but definitely above average.

Also, you're downplaying my research professors work. He's not a PI or a postdoc. He's a well known organic chemist and has been a professor since the 1980's. He's a hard working man that I look up to and doesn't need some jerk down-playing his work. I am just his research student, down-play me all you want.


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19 is still a decent score. Sounds like you got a passion for your research and hopefully your professor recognizes that (and writes you a great LoR).

Hell, I got 18 on my PAT and got accepted to most of the schools.
 
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I'm a solo practitioner. I am doing as much as I can by myself so I can keep most of the profit. There are a few reasons why I don't hire additional doctors:
1. I don't have enough rooms
2. I can still handle it myself. Why pay someone to do something I can do myself?
3. They might cannibalize my patients if they choose to setup near me in the future
4. I don't want to fix or correct anyone's work unless I'm getting paid for it.

I'm sure there's a lot more reasons besides these, but these are my main points. This is why I don't want to open another office or hire additional doctors. Marginally incremental profit for more work. In a multiple provider office, I have to be HR to the other doctor, pay them a significant chunk that I can do on my own. I am looking into possibly hiring a traveling OS to do 3rd's for me, but I don't know if I want to do any post-ops for them. If I had 20 chairs or more that I could completely fill up, I would consider hiring an associate. Even paying at 30% collections, the profit isn't enough to justify the additional administrative work and risks, and that's why I haven't looked into expanding to 20 chairs. If I could find an associate that would want to work for the long term with me with minimal guidance and take on a similar workload, I'd definitely add another 13 chairs.
This is really great information. I was trying to think of the best way to maxmimize profit while still keeping the overhead low. Sounds like solo practitioner (or maybe partnership if it's a good fit) is a good route.
 
Yeah that sounds more like TanMan now lol. I misread that by a long shot. He'll need like 15mil at a 4% SWR if doing it by mix of stocks/bonds. But it sounds like a lot will come from his side-business and so I suppose the same rules don't necessarily apply if he's confident his returns will remain high. Though along that line you might get hit with the income tax instead of capital gains tax that most early retirement people get hit with instead
I don't think any dentist in his/her 30's (let alone TanMan) has $15M (post tax) sitting around. If you read few pages back on this thread, TanMan invested his money in high risk high return, non-traditional, investments, which will give him a passive income of $40-50k pre-tax income a month, or $25-30k post-tax a month.

Anyways, it's doable what TanMan accomplished. He was ambitious, persistent, bold, disciplined, optimistic and above all worked REALLY hard. He is leaving dentistry before he turns 40, that's like Lebron or Messi retiring from their respective careers before their prime. On average, dentists peak their income in their 40's, so he could stand to make more money if he works for another 5-10 years beyond his goal.

I'm not 40 yet, and plan to keep working at least for another 10 years (before I turn 50), but my passive income by then will probably be double (if not more) as TanMan's. The point is, you just need to have a plan and give everything in effort to meet that goal.
 
I don't think any dentist in his/her 30's (let alone TanMan) has $15M (post tax) sitting around. If you read few pages back on this thread, TanMan invested his money in high risk high return, non-traditional, investments, which will give him a passive income of $40-50k pre-tax income a month, or $25-30k post-tax a month.

Anyways, it's doable what TanMan accomplished. He was ambitious, persistent, bold, disciplined, optimistic and above all worked REALLY hard. He is leaving dentistry before he turns 40, that's like Lebron or Messi retiring from their respective careers before their prime. On average, dentists peak their income in their 40's, so he could stand to make more money if he works for another 5-10 years beyond his goal.

I'm not 40 yet, and plan to keep working at least for another 10 years (before I turn 50), but my passive income by then will probably be double (if not more) as TanMan's. The point is, you just need to have a plan and give everything in effort to meet that goal.

I think I'm approaching my peak a bit early. I don't think my physical capabilities will get any better at 40, or even 50. Based on what I can produce and peak production levels, I think 3.6-4.0 would be my absolute limit (Edit: this is based on my highest production levels, who knows if I can push it further). I don't think that anyone should be persuaded that their peak will be in their 40's. If you have enough patients, you may reach your peak in your 30's.

Dentists could peak their income in their 40's depending on their practice growth and/or speed. Personally, I don't think I'm getting any faster in procedures and yearly growth is slowing down. One of the points of this thread is retiring early and I don't think I have been explicit in saying this, but growing your office quickly is very important to retire early.

Anyway, passive income is only one part of the equation. 40-50k is a minimum target for passive income, this does not account for all other sources of income. Passive income grows as your wealth grows, and the goal is to grow my wealth as much as possible (in all forms). If I can make more money going FT into my other businesses without the physical labor of dentistry and flexibility of managing while traveling, then why not? I don't want to wake up into my 50s and realize that I'm old(er) and I used up my youth working instead of enjoying life.
 
I think I'm approaching my peak a bit early. I don't think my physical capabilities will get any better at 40, or even 50. Based on what I can produce and peak production levels, I think 3.6-4.0 would be my absolute limit (Edit: this is based on my highest production levels, who knows if I can push it further). I don't think that anyone should be persuaded that their peak will be in their 40's. If you have enough patients, you may reach your peak in your 30's.

Dentists could peak their income in their 40's depending on their practice growth and/or speed. Personally, I don't think I'm getting any faster in procedures and yearly growth is slowing down. One of the points of this thread is retiring early and I don't think I have been explicit in saying this, but growing your office quickly is very important to retire early.

Anyway, passive income is only one part of the equation. 40-50k is a minimum target for passive income, this does not account for all other sources of income. Passive income grows as your wealth grows, and the goal is to grow my wealth as much as possible (in all forms). If I can make more money going FT into my other businesses without the physical labor of dentistry and flexibility of managing while traveling, then why not? I don't want to wake up into my 50s and realize that I'm old(er) and I used up my youth working instead of enjoying life.
You did say that you are not physically active type of person in a previous post. That could well explain why your body "feel like" its approaching it's peak early. Truth is, no other means of work or investment will bring you as high return on your investment as dentistry. If you stay physically active, your 40s body would feel like your 30s, but it will require you to do more effort on your body outside the office to keep the body in shape and to produce the same level of dentistry in your 30s. There are millions of people in their 40s and 50s who are more active than people in their 20s amen 30s.

Also, typically dentists or other professions work harder physically in their 20s and 30s, but work smarter in their 40s and 50s without quitting the profession. I worked my butt off in my 20s and 30s, but I plan to manage my practices more and go to work less in my 40s and 50s, it should be a great work life balance, and still have the time to do other things in life.

You probably feel burnt out and exhausted by trying to quit by age 40, to the point that it has become a self-fulfilled prophecy for your body. You should enjoy life a little even now, as there is more to it than money.
 
You did say that you are not physically active type of person in a previous post. That could well explain why your body "feel like" its approaching it's peak early. Truth is, no other means of work or investment will bring you as high return on your investment as dentistry. If you stay physically active, your 40s body would feel like your 30s, but it will require you to do more effort on your body outside the office to keep the body in shape and to produce the same level of dentistry in your 30s. There are millions of people in their 40s and 50s who are more active than people in their 20s amen 30s.

Also, typically dentists or other professions work harder physically in their 20s and 30s, but work smarter in their 40s and 50s without quitting the profession. I worked my butt off in my 20s and 30s, but I plan to manage my practices more and go to work less in my 40s and 50s, it should be a great work life balance, and still have the time to do other things in life.

You probably feel burnt out and exhausted by trying to quit by age 40, to the point that it has become a self-fulfilled prophecy for your body. You should enjoy life a little even now, as there is more to it than money.

I can't really agree nor disagree with what you're saying. Our 40 year old body will not recover as well as a 30 year old body, and our 30 year old body does not recover as well as our 20 year old body. I went through what your saying when I hit 30 (thinking I still had the same vitality as I did in my 20's) and I chalked it up to being in denial of my mortality.

I'd beg to differ that dentistry has the highest return on investment; it's definitely up there, but there's also better and easier ways of making money. Dentistry is a hard way of making a good amount of money. My options are either work less, spread it out longer, or work more, condense what I would normally do in 20-30 years in 8-10 years. There's more to life than working and I don't seek purpose in life through work.

In terms of burning out, it will happen at some point, but that's where mental stamina comes in. Just need to keep going everyday and its a daily battle with the amount of patients I see. I am stuck in a corner of my own doing, but I don't think I'd have it any other way. I don't understand the logic of slowing down and prolonging the attainment of my financial goals. I'd ask this of other dentists, if you had all the money you needed (or wanted) for the rest of your life, would you continue to work?
 
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