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Afaik only KCUMB has a 3.25 cutoff. The rest have cutoffs at 3.0, 2.85, 2.8, 2.75 or no mentioned cutoff. Although almost every school notes that GPAs under 3.0 are not likely to be competitive.
AACOMAS Grade Replacement Policy Announcement/Questions Regarding Change
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If their justification is to have a more "apples to apples" comparison, then possibly with enough resistance an avenue would be to let them proceed with the change, with the option that the application service also keeps grade replacement. That way both forms of the gpa are reflected and can be viewed by osteopathic schools.
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I'm so stressed about this now. I have put in so much time, effort, and money to fix my grades. My spouse and I even started budgeting to put our child in daycare for the sole purpose of allowing me to study for the MCAT but now I feel like not even a 528 will help me in this upcoming cycle. It seriously makes me want to take the MCAT like, tomorrow, and apply this cycle.
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The interesting thing in the letter was that they mentioned their lawyers twice. I think they are worried about getting sued. Given that they were giving grade replacement advice last week and this was in the works for a while, I can see why they would be concerned.
They suggest that the mean won't change but that ignores that this will have a dramatic affect on the aggressive replacers. I'd be curious who they tend to be. My suspicion is that this will hurt nontrads more and create classes more like MD demographics but with lower averages.
Sudden implementation of this policy seems unnecessarily cruel. Schools won't have the manpower or interest to recalculate grades.
Pretty cruel to have done this without warning.
They suggest that the mean won't change but that ignores that this will have a dramatic affect on the aggressive replacers. I'd be curious who they tend to be. My suspicion is that this will hurt nontrads more and create classes more like MD demographics but with lower averages.
Sudden implementation of this policy seems unnecessarily cruel. Schools won't have the manpower or interest to recalculate grades.
Pretty cruel to have done this without warning.
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Damn, applying to med school/DO school just got even more competitive. Just got the email too and I'm shocked that this goes into affect in 5 months.
I'm sure some schools might still look at replaced grades...but it seems to me that AACOMAS is streamlining their admissions policies in line with MD schools. Which kind of makes sense with the MD/DO residency merger coming in 3-4 years...but still. Damn
I'm sure some schools might still look at replaced grades...but it seems to me that AACOMAS is streamlining their admissions policies in line with MD schools. Which kind of makes sense with the MD/DO residency merger coming in 3-4 years...but still. Damn
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Hello,
I am in my final year of undergrad and I'm re-taking two courses in this spring term, but now i'm beginning to think it's not worth it? Do you guys think its worth putting in the time, money and effort into retaking a class you previously did poor on if the two grades will just get averaged in the new calculation anyway?
Thanks.
I am in my final year of undergrad and I'm re-taking two courses in this spring term, but now i'm beginning to think it's not worth it? Do you guys think its worth putting in the time, money and effort into retaking a class you previously did poor on if the two grades will just get averaged in the new calculation anyway?
Thanks.
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That depends on the course. At the end of the day an A averaged with a C will become a B. Your GPA WILL increase, just not as dramatically as before. If it's some random freshman course then you are better off taking an upper division science course. If it's a prerequisite then it may be better to retake it. Either way if you retake the course or take another course of same credits the GPA averages out the same.
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Because of this, isn't it easier to retake anyway? The class a second time around should be easier than some upper level course. Do MD schools look down on retakes? I assume it'll be the same for DO schools now.
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psu228
A friend of mine at NYU retook physics 1 (C the first time, A the second) and told me the adcoms loved that he had done so in interviews. It shows commitment and that you learned from your mistakes (not literally errors in this class but errors approaching material/study habits). Now, if you have a ton of retakes and a low MCAT score that probably would raise some eyebrows. But fundamentally, replacing CORE PRE REQS that you got Cs in the first time with As now will still be valued by DO and MD schools alike. It's not about intelligence it's about commitment. If you do well in your other courses and have a solid MCAT they will know you're smart enough to succeed.
As someone who was planning on applying this coming May this screws up my entire plan. I enrolled in a few retakes for spring, and after the classes I have already retaken plus those my GPA would have been 3.4....without it its 2.8. It's infuriating that they gave no warning until now. I would have been applying to SMPs months ago and had the option to apply to MDs schools instead of doing retakes had I known it was going to have the same end result. Feels a little defeating.
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Although I'm already in medical school, this change is insulting. I spent two years doing grade replacement and did a masters degree on top of that in order to prove to the admissions committee that I was prepared for medical school. If they had sprung this on me at literally the last minute, I'd be extremely upset. I hope that they reconsider their timeline and push this change back at least another cycle.
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so after all this time and money taking retakes for a year.........WTF!!!!!
I'm registered this semester in the spring what do I do? Save my money? apply PA? you tell me AACOMAS OVERLORDS!!
ARE THE SCHOOLS FOLLOWING SUIT?
probably didn't even communicate with the schools. the schools probably don't know what the f&%$ is going on.
I had a horrible first couple of years in college I had to work full time to afford it. I was taking care of my sick grandmother. I remember the night before my first day of college, I was at my grandmothers apartment picking her up off the floor while she was covered in blood. I was late to the first day of class because of that. My father is 80 percent deaf and almost crippled because of his line of work back in the day. My mother is a trust fund kid who doesn't understand what the hell is going on.. At least I have my uncle who is a doctor to give me advice
I'm sorry I needed to vent. This is bulls#@$t.
I'm registered this semester in the spring what do I do? Save my money? apply PA? you tell me AACOMAS OVERLORDS!!
ARE THE SCHOOLS FOLLOWING SUIT?
probably didn't even communicate with the schools. the schools probably don't know what the f&%$ is going on.
I had a horrible first couple of years in college I had to work full time to afford it. I was taking care of my sick grandmother. I remember the night before my first day of college, I was at my grandmothers apartment picking her up off the floor while she was covered in blood. I was late to the first day of class because of that. My father is 80 percent deaf and almost crippled because of his line of work back in the day. My mother is a trust fund kid who doesn't understand what the hell is going on.. At least I have my uncle who is a doctor to give me advice
I'm sorry I needed to vent. This is bulls#@$t.
I'm in a similar spot, this truly sucks. I don't know if I should drop my spring classes that are all retakes. Seems like a waste of time and money now that I probably need to put into an SMP (if my old GPA is even good enough for one)
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AACOMCAS honestly does deserve to get sued.
I only took 2 classes for grade replacement that I got Cs in
but there are many students who had difficulty in college when they started due to many personal reasons. And they worked hard to overcome them. They tried to bounce back and spent 20k + to replace those Fs
AACOMCAS was advocating grade replacement a week ago. And now, without any type of warning they announce this change and screwed over thousands of applicants. smh
Saw the link for it on /r/premed: https://www.change.org/p/dr-stephen-c-shannon-change-aacomas-new-policy-on-repeat-coursework
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This is politics.... c'mon 6 months before they announce this crap. we got 2 years in advance that they were changing the mcat, which wasn't as big of a deal.
Someone is pocketing money here. it stinks. Hopefully Wikileaks releases some emails soon LOL.
Someone is pocketing money here. it stinks. Hopefully Wikileaks releases some emails soon LOL.
I'll call it from now: next thing AACOMAS will do is they'll no longer lump graduate grades with undergrad grades for gpa calculations and will instead have separate undergrad and graduate categories.
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I'm still going to take the couple of retakes this spring, but I'm going to apply to both do and md schools this year instead of just DO. I probably don't stand a chance at MD, because I have 3 F's on my transcript from the first year of college, but they might recommend their post bacc program which I will jump on if they like me. So the plan is for right now. STUDY MY ASS OF FOR THE MCAT. I'm cutting off my friends, booze, anything that's going to f%&k with my concentration. I was shooting to do well on the mcat, but now I have to slay it. Slay it like the the little b*&%h that it is. Best of luck to you all.
Burn in hell corrupt aacomas board.
Burn in hell corrupt aacomas board.
Good luck. Reminds me of myself during my heathen days in undergrad. Just if I had self-control when I was 18-19.... I would be set.
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That change.org petition is written very poorly and misses the critical reasons the policy is unreasonable and burdensome. The points that need to be stressed and emailed to [email protected] are:
- Students have invested thousands of hours and tens of thousands of dollars repeating courses under the clear expectation that they would be competitive candidates.
- Any change to the policy should be given at least one year in advance if not two.
- Changes in policy without notice put unreasonable economic hardship on students reasonable expectations.
- Students must be given reasonable time to plan, and many are signed up for retakes that start this month and have no time to register or apply for programs that make more sense if retakes are averaged.
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Non-trad lurker here (registered an acct to post this). I'm over 30, have spent the last 2 years doing an informal post-bac at a local college in order to fix an undergrad GPA from when I was younger that included two years of major struggle (mostly in science classes). I'm not at all in the same place academically that I was when I took these classes the first time around, and my transcripts now show it. I have a great MCAT, but my science GPA (inclusive of all of my classes) is a nightmare. If you calculate with grade replacement, I have something like a 3.8sGPA. If you don't replace grades, it's below 3.0.
This change will hurt osteopathic recruiting. The original post mentions an analysis of a "statistically significant" sample [*without specifying what level of significance ... which seems fishy] of candidates and dismisses the changes as making only a minor difference to GPA calculations. Perhaps I truly am in the minority. But for me, I was planning to apply DO next cycle as someone with stats that, with grade replacement, would be competitive at almost any medical school (MD or DO), but without replacement would require a school to take a much fuller look at my academic history and trajectory. The fact that the osteopathic process went out of its way to remove an institutional barrier (in the allopathic process) that created significant differential access for certain groups of applicants, was not lost on me. It was something I took to be an indication of a greater focus on equity, and gave me a warm fuzzy feeling. I'm /now/ a strong student with a top MCAT score, and I'd argue an equitable application process would reflect this (hence warm fuzzy feeling for DO). Grade replacement helps those with disadvantaged or troubled backgrounds who did poorly at first in school and dropped out (etc) but managed later to beat the odds, find a way as an adult to return to school while supporting themselves, and come out the other side. To remove it seems inequitable to me. Particularly because, although I don't have any data at hand, I suspect the people who use grade replacement are far more likely to be from a disadvantaged background (I can check more than one of the 9 "educationally/environmentally disadvantaged" boxes in this cycle's application, although this is admittedly an n of 1). At least in the allopathic realm the cracks that certain applicants can fall through (minimum screens etc) are known and schools presumably account for this. The best case scenario is that osteopathic schools manage to adjust to the new policy in the next 5 months and start screening for applicants who previously would have been included by default. The less-than-best-case scenario is that osteopathic schools won't be able to immediately adjust to this.
Consider if you were a non-trad like myself who has budgeted to apply to ~15 schools and then interview at, let's say, 5 of them ... if the process is now "apples to apples" with allopathic, but allopathic schools are a known quantity (amongst non-trads who reinvent themselves it is well known which schools actively recruit these students), how many osteopathic would you include in your 15 schools? Now if consider grade replacement still exists, making you a stellar candidate (numbers-wise) at any osteopathic school, would the osteopathic proportion of 15 schools be higher? This change will hurt osteopathic recruiting, at least in the short term.
(In the long term, as part of a broader shift designed to boost osteopathy's reputation to par with allopathy, perhaps it will help, but at least as an outsider who has read Gevitz' The DOs, it seems like the "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" attitude of the last hundred years has continually eroded many aspects that made osteopathy special. This is just one more way, at least for me, however an outlier I might be, this is one way that osteopathy just became a bit less special.)
This change will hurt osteopathic recruiting. The original post mentions an analysis of a "statistically significant" sample [*without specifying what level of significance ... which seems fishy] of candidates and dismisses the changes as making only a minor difference to GPA calculations. Perhaps I truly am in the minority. But for me, I was planning to apply DO next cycle as someone with stats that, with grade replacement, would be competitive at almost any medical school (MD or DO), but without replacement would require a school to take a much fuller look at my academic history and trajectory. The fact that the osteopathic process went out of its way to remove an institutional barrier (in the allopathic process) that created significant differential access for certain groups of applicants, was not lost on me. It was something I took to be an indication of a greater focus on equity, and gave me a warm fuzzy feeling. I'm /now/ a strong student with a top MCAT score, and I'd argue an equitable application process would reflect this (hence warm fuzzy feeling for DO). Grade replacement helps those with disadvantaged or troubled backgrounds who did poorly at first in school and dropped out (etc) but managed later to beat the odds, find a way as an adult to return to school while supporting themselves, and come out the other side. To remove it seems inequitable to me. Particularly because, although I don't have any data at hand, I suspect the people who use grade replacement are far more likely to be from a disadvantaged background (I can check more than one of the 9 "educationally/environmentally disadvantaged" boxes in this cycle's application, although this is admittedly an n of 1). At least in the allopathic realm the cracks that certain applicants can fall through (minimum screens etc) are known and schools presumably account for this. The best case scenario is that osteopathic schools manage to adjust to the new policy in the next 5 months and start screening for applicants who previously would have been included by default. The less-than-best-case scenario is that osteopathic schools won't be able to immediately adjust to this.
Consider if you were a non-trad like myself who has budgeted to apply to ~15 schools and then interview at, let's say, 5 of them ... if the process is now "apples to apples" with allopathic, but allopathic schools are a known quantity (amongst non-trads who reinvent themselves it is well known which schools actively recruit these students), how many osteopathic would you include in your 15 schools? Now if consider grade replacement still exists, making you a stellar candidate (numbers-wise) at any osteopathic school, would the osteopathic proportion of 15 schools be higher? This change will hurt osteopathic recruiting, at least in the short term.
(In the long term, as part of a broader shift designed to boost osteopathy's reputation to par with allopathy, perhaps it will help, but at least as an outsider who has read Gevitz' The DOs, it seems like the "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" attitude of the last hundred years has continually eroded many aspects that made osteopathy special. This is just one more way, at least for me, however an outlier I might be, this is one way that osteopathy just became a bit less special.)
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psu228
Totally agree. Honestly this change doesn't hurt me much at all with only two Cs retaken to As in core pre reqs, but I am way less excited to (hopefully) become an osteopathic physician now. I really did appreciate the fact that they gave people like you a second chance.
Regardless, I hope you still apply man. I do believe that not all of the DO schools will jump on board with this, at least this cycle. good luck
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How will retaken courses now be evaluated?
If you take a 3 credit course and get an F, then retake and get an A do you get 3 credits of F and 3 credits of A? This would average to 6 credits of C... Or do you get 3 credits of the average? This would still average to C, but would only be counted as 3 credits...
This matters because as you rack up more and more credits it becomes difficult to raise your GPA significantly...
If you take a 3 credit course and get an F, then retake and get an A do you get 3 credits of F and 3 credits of A? This would average to 6 credits of C... Or do you get 3 credits of the average? This would still average to C, but would only be counted as 3 credits...
This matters because as you rack up more and more credits it becomes difficult to raise your GPA significantly...
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I'm curious about this too...the wording "Credit hours for all attempts will be entered as they appear on the official transcript and all grades will be averaged." doesn't really make it clear.
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Right if they are "averaged" then retakes would still be beneficial (raise 3 credits of 0.00 to 3 credits of 2.00, for example). If they are looked at as separate attempts, then retakes are not beneficially, unless your point is to prove you can pass the class.
I guess I'm not understanding what they mean by "averaged."
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I'm assuming they are counted as separate attempts. It says "all grades will be averaged."
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All grades are counted. So 3 of F and 3 of A would be counted as 6 credits total averaged to a C. And yes as you take more and more classes it becomes exponentially more difficult to raise your GPA even by a small margin.
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This in my opinion warrants the opinion of an attorney. ESPECIALLY for individuals who have sunk tens of thousands of dollars into grade repair.
Instead of everyone sitting around and complaining, be proactive! I'll be compiling information to discuss with a family member who is an attorney as this sudden implementation of a new rule is cruel to say the least. If there was previous warning that gave applicants ample time to adjust accordingly, there isn't a case here. But based on some of the information I've read (Goro not having any clue, my administration being caught off guard, AACOMAS contacting an applicant a week ago and giving contradicting information, etc), there is definitely valid reasons to be absolutely furious.
I'm not even in this mess and I feel for you who have been effected. Stay positive and do the necessary research to be successful. If **** is hitting the fan and AACOMAS did not indeed give ample time for applicants to adjust, I'd seriously explore the idea of speaking to an attorney.
Instead of everyone sitting around and complaining, be proactive! I'll be compiling information to discuss with a family member who is an attorney as this sudden implementation of a new rule is cruel to say the least. If there was previous warning that gave applicants ample time to adjust accordingly, there isn't a case here. But based on some of the information I've read (Goro not having any clue, my administration being caught off guard, AACOMAS contacting an applicant a week ago and giving contradicting information, etc), there is definitely valid reasons to be absolutely furious.
I'm not even in this mess and I feel for you who have been effected. Stay positive and do the necessary research to be successful. If **** is hitting the fan and AACOMAS did not indeed give ample time for applicants to adjust, I'd seriously explore the idea of speaking to an attorney.
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This makes sense to me now. Unfortunately I have 180 attempted credit hours.... basically maxed out my gpa
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I feel for ya man. In my opinion it is a fools errand to try to repair a GPA with that many credits. It would be a much better use of your time to dedicate to an SMP of sorts.
However it is prudent to note that if you were planning on say taking the MCAT and then applying this coming cycle I think you should still prepare to do so with a solid back up plan. You don't know what could happen in 4 months (as has clearly been demonstrated in a matter of a day) and if there is a grace period implemented you do not want to be caught not prepared to take advantage of it..
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I'm also in a bad position due to this change. With grade replacement I was at a cgpa of 3.69 and sgpa of 3.6. Without, I'm at a cgpa of 3.12 and sgpa of 2.95, which is terrible and not competitive. I'm taking the MCAT in June so I guess I have to do fantastic on that. It's quite depressing because my DIY post-bac GPA is a 3.95 and I worked so hard to finally get it right with my studying. Not to mention worked as a hospice CNA to be able to pay for thousands of dollars in classes out of pocket. I'm extremely stressed because I wanted to go to the LECOM post-bac, but don't think I'll get in with people scrambling now. I wish they implemented some sort of grace period instead of this abrupt change.
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AACOMAS never guaranteed anyone a spot at a DO program just for repeating coursework. Attorneys won't do jack. It amazes me how so many millenials think they are "owed" a spot at a DO program just because you retook a couple classes.
You will all be fine. None of you know how admissions committes work. They will STILL see that you remediates classes and you improved your score. Remediation science classes will also help with the MCAT. This step by AACOMAS was necessary because different DO schools had different policies with retakes and how many retakes were accepted, etc. This evens out the playing field for statistical purposes. You all have to relax and keep doing what you're doing and apply. But this entitled attitude of most of the posts here is both shocking and discomforting. The application process for DO schools is holistic and they just don't look at GPA alone. Just because you took a few retake classes NEVER meant you were going to waltz into a DO program. The AOA/AACOMAS/COMs don't owe you anything because you retook classes and no school guarantees you acceptance if you retook classes or got a higher GPA. You made that adult decision knowing it was a gamble but confident it would help with your professional careers. So be confident in that judgement and keep working hard and applying and hope for the best. Honestly, these whinny posts with change.org and whatnot are sad and make you all look pathetic, desperate, and very immature. If these kinds of tones or attitudes were displayed as a medical student or, worse, a resident, you would be sitting in front of an ethics committee or worse. If you want to be doctors, act like doctors.
You will all be fine. None of you know how admissions committes work. They will STILL see that you remediates classes and you improved your score. Remediation science classes will also help with the MCAT. This step by AACOMAS was necessary because different DO schools had different policies with retakes and how many retakes were accepted, etc. This evens out the playing field for statistical purposes. You all have to relax and keep doing what you're doing and apply. But this entitled attitude of most of the posts here is both shocking and discomforting. The application process for DO schools is holistic and they just don't look at GPA alone. Just because you took a few retake classes NEVER meant you were going to waltz into a DO program. The AOA/AACOMAS/COMs don't owe you anything because you retook classes and no school guarantees you acceptance if you retook classes or got a higher GPA. You made that adult decision knowing it was a gamble but confident it would help with your professional careers. So be confident in that judgement and keep working hard and applying and hope for the best. Honestly, these whinny posts with change.org and whatnot are sad and make you all look pathetic, desperate, and very immature. If these kinds of tones or attitudes were displayed as a medical student or, worse, a resident, you would be sitting in front of an ethics committee or worse. If you want to be doctors, act like doctors.
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AACOMAS was in the wrong for not alerting everyone earlier but in no way was this move "corrupt". And before anyone jumps on my case about how easy it is to say this "on the other side" you should know that I am also aggravated by the lack of communication that was instilled and the lack of a transition period (such as the transition period for the AOA to ACGME merge). I can understand why everyone is frustrated beyond description. Aacomas did not want to do this but their legal and governing body for application service essentially told them to pull the policy a year or so ago. That's still no excuse for not telling applicants sooner.
However, I firmly believe DO schools will still look at each applicants GPA with and without class retakes. How they will screen this for secondaries will change but there is no way they would decide to punt any student who showed renovation through these retakes.
I can tell you that at my school every applicant upon submitting a secondary is looked at grade by grade.
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However, I firmly believe DO schools will still look at each applicants GPA with and without class retakes. How they will screen this for secondaries will change but there is no way they would decide to punt any student who showed renovation through these retakes.
I can tell you that at my school every applicant upon submitting a secondary is looked at grade by grade.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the whole point of averaging a retake is NOT to include it in one's transcript like a completely new class. So a 3 credit course that was repeated (6 refutes total) would still have the quality points averaged (ex: F 0.0 then an A 4.0 = C 2.0) but only be worth the original three credits. Isn't that how AMCAs does it? The wording is very tricky though.
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I don't think many of us feel like we are "owed" a spot at any school. I feel like we are "owed" the common courtesy of being told what the policies are. Especially when we take those policies and organize 2-3 yrs plus around them (not to mention the $$$ for tuition). Its one thing to not get in to a school, its another thing to spend $15,000+ retaking courses based on a policy that is changed without warning.
Some may be whining, but many are venting their frustration at losing a lot of money and a lot of time....
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@AlteredScale Can you make a sub-topic and compile all of the new threads on the grade replacement news into that lol.
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I think the wording is misleading. I'm fairly confident they don't "average" anything. They just treat is as another class, as @HMtoDO stated earlier.
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If they cancel the policy of grade replacement, will the GPA of accepted DO students also go down, or will it stay the same or even increase? Is this basically their way of weeding out more people?
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The issue is principal. There should have been some type of forewarning. It's easy to call people immature and desperate when you're not in their situation. Try and understand that there are individuals with sub 2.5 gpas who have invested in their futures by doing grade repair (whether non-traditional or not). This entire fiasco could have been avoided or at least mitigated had AACOMAS announced their plans at the beginning/end of last cycle to give future applicants some time to adjust accordingly. The most reasonable thing would've been to give a two year grace period similar to when the new MCAT was announced. The fact that they're implementing a new rule without any announcement at the beginning of the cycle is mind boggling.
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Then why even mention averaging the two if they aren't actually being averaged? Just say we're taking away the grade replacement policy and all grades will be considered. They are so annoying.
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All grades are averaged. Your GPA is just that... an average. They are emphasizing the average part because it is different than replacing.
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Right, but it's redundant.
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I talked to an admissions counselor at PNWU and he said that his school was "frustrated" with AACOMAS with the lack of communication and lack of a transition period. He noted some prospective students are currently enrolled in classes with the hope of replacing lower grades and that these students were told by the DO schools that is was alright to retake classes. I can see AACOMAS getting sued over this.
He also noted that PNWU, (I am not sure about other DO schools), look at your last 60-90 credit hours. He told me that it would be beneficial to take upper division science classes to prove to the admissions committee that you are ready for medical school.
He did say that people should contact each school they are interested in to see if they will still allow grade replacement.
I hope this information helps.
He also noted that PNWU, (I am not sure about other DO schools), look at your last 60-90 credit hours. He told me that it would be beneficial to take upper division science classes to prove to the admissions committee that you are ready for medical school.
He did say that people should contact each school they are interested in to see if they will still allow grade replacement.
I hope this information helps.
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Thank you for this! That's my #1 school and I had full intent to apply there this summer, but my GPA is trashed due to this change due to a few years of really low GPA. My last 60 credits is MUCH higher (like 3.5+) so that's really good news that they look at that too. I'm still pretty concerned in most regards though. :/
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A petition would be worth a shot for those who are severely impacted by this, but that petition on change.org is written horribly and I wouldn't put my name on that. A revised version of this which highlights the key points of why there should at least be a grandfather clause or something along those lines would be better but the one that currently exists may not have even been proofread.
